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Archive => Archived Boards => Local Issues => Topic started by: moorendman on November 26, 2008, 05:52:13 PM
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and instantly produced 2 "no"s from this household. I cannot see how this flawed and inequitable plan is heading for anything else other than a resounding defeat. How does everyone else feel?
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The forms are coming through your doors this week , have your say and post an indication on here.
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Couldn't agree with you more. There seems to be absolutely nothing in the proposals for Marple, and on the wider view only negative effects for most of Stockport. What, for instance, happened to the original plans for the Metro? They clearly showed that the system would come out to Marple. Definitely NO from me!
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two no s from this household as well. and posted back all ready .
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I'd like to vote no due to the pathetic benefits to Marple, but I suspect I'll vote yes (and have done here where it matters not) as I actually support the concept.
If not the congestion charge then what instead? The money is never going to be provided by Central (aka Londoncetric) Government "Money for Metrolink, ooo no.... Crossrail in London, where did I put my chequebook?". Its the only idea I've heard of that is ever going to raise the money needed and paid by those who contribute to all those cars on our roads at times when the road systrem just can't cope (and that includes me!).
Then again, I always support and underdog!
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I support the concept but do not support the proposed implementation, therefore NO votes all round from the NBT household!
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Will a regular direct bus service to Manchester be in the proposals?
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Will a regular direct bus service to Manchester be in the proposals?
Probably......but it will only run when there are engineering works on the Marple to Piccadilly Railway line !
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In theory the concept is great, reliable public transport which is cheap, safe, clean and there when you need it. however when the busses were sold off the companies knew the deal. They reinvest profits to provide better bus/train services like good businesses do. I am totally opposed to public money being given to stagecoach and the others to buy new equipment. what happens in 15 years when the busses and trains are old and in a similar condition to todays? do they go cap in hand back the manchester council?
I want to vote yes, but totally disagree with the way the whole thing is set out. it they reworked the plans, pledged to improve the roads for those who have no alternative to drive cars, and allowed the 'no vote' some public money for a fair advertising campaign then i think that many more people would feel that the whole process is a little more equal.
they dont have to act on the ballot. and i have a feeling that we will get this charge regardless of how we vote!
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those who have no alternative to drive cars
In reality there are very few of these people. Most who claim this, actually have effectively chosen a lifestyle that is dependent on a car.
What about the 30% of GM residents who don't own a car?
and allowed the 'no vote' some public money for a fair advertising campaign
They have hardly struggled for cash.... The Trafford Centre has spent a fortune on fighting the charge - I wonder why?
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Those who have to drive, eg everyone who needs to take more than themselves and some sandwiches to work!
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In reality there are very few of these people. Most who claim this, actually have effectively chosen a lifestyle that is dependent on a car.
What about the 30% of GM residents who don't own a car?
Where does that 30% figure come from? And thats "own" a car not have access to one. For the remainder, have many of them not also made a lifestyle choice? eg I work in central Manchester so I will buy a flat in the city centre.
Those "30%" also couldn't care less because it will cost them nothing.
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Will a regular direct bus service to Manchester be in the proposals?
[/quote
If So Would Take A Week To Get There
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Where does that 30% figure come from?
Those "30%" also couldn't care less because it will cost them nothing.
The figure comes from here. http://www.manchester.gov.uk/downloads/KF12_Car_Ownership.pdf
And I should imagine those without a car care very much, because even more than the rest of us, they will benefit greatly from improvements in public transport.
Belly wrote 'I'd like to vote no due to the pathetic benefits to Marple, but I suspect I'll vote yes as I actually support the concept'. That's exactly how I feel. With all its flaws, the plan on the table is the only one on offer. If we reject it there will be no plan B, and for the foreseeable future we will simply have to put up with second rate public transport and ever-increasing congestion. And we shall have only ourselves to blame.
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Thanks for the link Dave re car ownership. However it dates from 2001 and car ownership has increased since then , and secondly the data relates to car ownership not access to a vehicle. Also the 30% figure fro Greater Manchester in that document is distorted in itself by the apparent low ownership in Manchester.
I was wrong to write that those without a car "couldn't care less" - I should have expressed my view more clearly; it will not cost them anything and they will only "gain". They will also enjoy the added benefit of the removal of a desire to own a car because of the increased manchester running cost of the CC.
Your final point relates to the "only offer on the table" Is that any way to react to a blatant "take it or leave it" offer? If it is rejected there will be alternatives. There are many alternatives now that would cost little money including more thought about traffic management in central Manchester, the bus lane concept, more regulation of buses etc
The worst congestion in Marple occurs during the school year and I would be surprised to see any congestion charges for crossing the M60 deterring people who are clogging the roads on the school runs.
I would perhaps support the concept myself if not for the M60 outer ring charge - putting the whole charge on the inner ring into central Manchester would make the whole idea more palatable.
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I own a car, but don't use it for communing - its walking and train for me.
The proposals have no real benefit for me - in fact I think things will get worse. The trains I get are already overcrowded - certain trains often dangerously so. So if more people leave their cars at home and get the train the situation just gets worse. No new rolling stock is proposed and the recent cave in by the government on trains having to stop at stockport will put even more people on the local trains. I start work really early to avoid the worst of the crush, but even so the trains are completely full at 7am. Often on the Buxton line people cannot get on the train as it is so chocca.
I deally I would love to see more people use public transport - but as to this proposal I will be voting no (I have a feeling that my vote will make no difference though)
Alison
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putting the whole charge on the inner ring into central Manchester would make the whole idea more palatable.
Agreed
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I wonder if you vote Yes, then as Stockport is outside the ring, will it then become a honey pot for all businesses who don't want to have to cross the ring. As Manchester residents don't have to pay when travelling out in the morning etc. then could Stockport Town Centre then rival The Trafford Centre? That might even be a reason to Vote No
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What makes me laugh is that they are saying they will run more buses, more routes and trains but is this just what they did years ago before stopping several services and routes!!!! I think this CC has been in the planning for a very long time. The people that think that it will not cost them are SSOOOOOOO wrong, if they get a tradesman for example and he has to cross the zone he will not be paying, it will be you as the customer.
Its a big fat NO from me.
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No new rolling stock is proposed
Well it depends what you mean by 'new'. If you mean 'additional' (as opposed to brand new and smelling of paint!) then that's not correct. This is an excerpt from the rail proposals for the Stockport area:
'The service between Manchester Piccadilly and Marple, via Bredbury, would run every quarter of an hour under the TIF proposals. There would be extra seats on peak-time rail services to reduce overcrowding with station improvements at Bramhall, Woodsmoor, Reddish North, Brinnington, Bredbury and Rosehill.'
Increasing frequency alone, from the present three trains per hour to four trains per hour, will require additional rolling stock, and will increase capacity by 33%. On top of that, we are promised extra seats - i.e. more carriages - on peak time services.
So there will be more rolling stock and significantly increased capacity. But what bothers me is where will these additional passengers park? Parking anywhere near Marple station on a weekday is already very difficult, and I'm not aware of any plan to expand the car parks. :'(
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I will believe the extra rolling stock (and not clapped-out rubbish cascaded down from other areas) and better frequency of service when it happens! Maybe I am just an old cynic, but I know that you have to catch a train earlier than you really need to, just in case yours is cancelled!! And the parking is just a nightmare. More and more cars are left all day all over the surrounding areas - just inside Winnington Road is a favourite, far too close to the junction. And I wonder where they are going to find the extra land in Romiley to increase the park and ride service there? Its all 'pie in the sky' ! >:(
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I get the train from Davenport - the frequency during the day is fine - the trains are all two carriage jobbies that cannot easily be lengthened. half of them are falling apart, they regularly break down and get cancelled, they have no heatingin the winter sometimes - and bizarrly heating on full blast in the summer, and as stated before even at 7 in the morning they are standing room only by the time they leave Heaton Chapel. Going home is even worse, as anyone who has travelled on the 16.37 to Buxton can attest.
I do not believe that the CC will make that situation any better, it will probably be worse, and the CC zone is far too wide and will badly affect Stockport businesses. In my humble opinion its unjust, ill conceived and unwelcome. Still a no from me
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'The service between Manchester Piccadilly and Marple, via Bredbury, would run every quarter of an hour under the TIF proposals.
I would love to know also where they are going to "park" all these trains that are going to be leaving Marple every 15 mins???? I agree with Barbara where are they going to find all these parking spaces in all the stations along the Marple to Manchester line????
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This household will be voting YES!
Most small towns are lucky to have 1 train station but Marple is lucky to have 2 train stations, 1 is overused and the other underused. Marple station car parks are always full, Rosehill car park is always empty. I think most cars at Marple station are from people who live at the bottom end of Marple i.e near Rosehill station but drive to Marple station because the Rosehill service is so bad which I can understand, the other cars are from people who are just too bone idle to walk! Sort Rosehill station out with 4 trains per hour at peak times and 2 an hour at every other time and that will solve the parking and volume of passengers at Marple station. If you read the proposals, it actually does mention Rosehill station.
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I would love to know also where they are going to "park" all these trains that are going to be leaving Marple every 15 mins????
The trains don't need to be 'parked' - they will run out from Piccadilly to Marple, turn round and go straight back. At present two of the three trains per hour do exactly that.
I think most cars at Marple station are from people who live at the bottom end of Marple i.e near Rosehill station but drive to Marple station because the Rosehill service is so bad which I can understand, the other cars are from people who are just too bone idle to walk!
Maybe, but a significant proportion of those who park at Marple come from 'over the hill' - New Mills, Hayfield etc. This is partly because the service from Marple is more frequant than it is from New Mills, but mainly because Marple is inside Greater Manchester and the train fare is therefore significantly cheaper
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I know of a few passengers who do that but forgot to add it in my post. The train fare from New Mills must be significantly dearer for it to work out cheaper for people to drive to Marple station.
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A quick enquiry on the net shows that a retuen fare at peak times is £4.90 Marple to manchester , £7.60 New mills to Manchester. At £2.70 a day I would drive to Marple too, especially if the idiots paying for car park maintenance on the council tax were providing me with a free space to park !! Still they have got 8 spaces left to park on the short stay.
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Still they have got 8 spaces left to park on the short stay.
Quite right too! There is precious little parking in Marple Bridge, and those short stay places in Brabyns Brow Car Park are often needed by people who want to shop or go to the doctors/dentists in Marple Bridge. However, the disabled spaces are always empty! ??? What's badly needed is an extension to the car park behind Basmati, opposite the station.
Meanwhile, for those of us who are still undecided, it's 'make your mind up' time - deadline for voting is next Thursday 11 December. :-\
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Meanwhile, for those of us who are still undecided, it's 'make your mind up' time - deadline for voting is next Thursday 11 December. :-\
I would say deadline for posting you vote is 10 Dec as your vote needs to be down in London for the close on the 11th for the final count.
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Well after sitting on the fence for weeks I've come off it at last, and have voted yes.
It's not straightforward, is it. I fear the charge will make congestion worse not better in our immediate area - i.e. around south and east Stockport, just outside the M60. But then the congestion will get worse anyway - so we might as well have the benefits of improvements to our public transport, such as they are.
But I remain mystified by the promise to paint school buses yellow. How can the colour have any effect on traffic congestion. ???
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Dave I think a little like you, but 99% of me says why should we as car drivers pay for a private company (gmpte and the trains) make more money, they get enough out of our council tax as it is, the government should tell them[gmpte etc] to expand and sort the state of the busses out etc, and if they want this £3bn in funds that they have to pay it back as they are the ones that will benefit not Joe bloggs car driver.
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why should we as car drivers pay for a private company (gmpte and the trains) make more money,
GMPTE is not a private company, it is a public body - the executive arm of the Passenger Transport Authority GMPTA, which is responsible to the ten Greater Manchester district councils.
Local rail services are provided by a private company, Northern Rail, which receives a subsidy from GMPTE. However, nationally, road transport receives around 40 times more taxpayers money than rail transport, so Joe Bloggs in his car is doing very nicely thank you! ;D
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Got pointed to the referendum figures from Michael Taylor's blog, "The Marple Leaf" (which is found at http://themarpleleaf.blogspot.com/ (http://themarpleleaf.blogspot.com/))
(http://blogs.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/politics/tur333.jpg)
Michael's opinion is here:
http://themarpleleaf.blogspot.com/2008/12/tif-referendum-winner-is.html (http://themarpleleaf.blogspot.com/2008/12/tif-referendum-winner-is.html)
The turnout appears to be less than 50% in every borough. In Stockport the votes received add up to 89,432 so far, from an electorate of 216,973. A turnout so far of 41.2% is above the regional average of 38.2%.The full piece is here:
http://blogs.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/politics/2008/12/post_475.html (http://blogs.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/politics/2008/12/post_475.html)
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Its a massive NO :D ;D :D ;D Every single of the 10 boroughs said NO
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YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What a sensible decision. Now lets see what they come up with next to reduce congestion, hopefully it will be something like get rid of the bus lanes which are mostly empty.
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So the stockport vote was accurately reflected in our very limited poll here of around 4 to 1 against.
I don't know what I will do now there will be no new Stockport Bus station. Perhaps when they come back again they might consider putting public transport improvements in first, re-regulating the buses, reducing the congestion charging zone to a more sensible smaller area around Manchester City Centre and finally realising that "holding a gun" to our heads will not work.
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Perhaps when they come back again.........
I don't think they will come back again - not for a few years anyway. The vote was being watched throughout the UK - just as the regional assembly referendum in the North East a couple of years ago was watched - as an indicator of whether the principle of congestion charging would be accepted outside London. This vote has probably kicked the whole idea into the long grass for the foreseeable future.
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VOTES BY AREA
Bolton
Yes 20,529
No 76,910
Turnout - 48.8%
Bury
Yes 16,563
No 64,001
Turnout 57.4%
Manchester
Yes 43,593
No 113,064
Turnout 46.1%
Oldham
Yes 17,571
No 68,884
Turnout 54.4%
Rochdale
Yes 17,333
No 61,686
Turnout 50.8%
Salford
Yes 14,603
No 79,326
Turnout 57%
Stockport
Yes 24,090
No 103,706
Turnout 59%
Tameside
Yes 16,323
No 83,105
Turnout 60.7%
Trafford
Yes 20,445
No 83,568
Turnout 63.6%
Wigan
Yes 27,810
No 78,565
Turnout 45.3%
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the bus lanes only get used by buses to help congestion between the hrs of 7am till 10am and then 4pm till 7pm any other times anybody can use the bus lane. so if you get stuck in traffic use it.
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THE failed TIF bid is believed to have cost more than £20m.
Council staff spent thousands of hours drawing up detailed plans for how the congestion charge would work.
A report produced by the Association of Greater Manchester Authorities last month revealed £6m was spent on working out how the scheme would operate - including the impact on jobs and motoring.
A total of £3m was spent on a public consultation about the plans, including a Mori poll of 85,000 people and the delivery of leaflets to 2m households. Cash was also spent on TV, radio and newspaper adverts explaining the TIF plans.
Another £5.4m was spent on investigating rail, bus and park and ride schemes. And more than 30 private consultancies were paid a total of £6.5m to help research and draw up the plans.
Among them was design agency Creative Concern - which was behind a leaflet that used invented `case studies' illustrated with pictures of American models. The cost of the postal ballot of 1.9m homes is expected to be £2m.
A total of £34m had originally been budgeted. At the end of October, £18m had been spent but the total costs have still to be assessed.
More than half the costs were met through a grant from the Department for Transport, while the remaining funds were provided by the councils.
from the MEN website author not stated.
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A spin off if the C charge went through would have been that disabled badge owners would have been affected because the badge at present is issued to a person and not a vehicle. As long as the person to whom the badge is issued is in any vehicle they can use the badge. Under the proposals for the C charge this would transfer to a vehicle.