Marple Website Community Calendar
Archive => Archived Boards => Sale of Hibbert Lane Campus to Supermarket Chain => Topic started by: Rod Sproson on September 30, 2012, 04:57:33 PM
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I have followed the proposed development much like any other resident of Marple. Although I do not want the development on that site I genuinely feel that we have already lost. Crystallising my thoughts on Saturday when talking to a gentleman who wore a badge saying he was the accountant of the college. Whether he was or not is any body's guess. I queried the rule being applied by the burly security guards that only allowed 10 people in when 10 came out. Guess what reply I had? Its a Health and Safety issue! with too many people in the dining hall. I think he failed to get my point when I asked how many students occupy that hall during the day. In other words its all a fix. A picture of the hall during the consultation will reveal a low level of interest with a few people milling around. Further a smart suited traffic consultant was insistent that a 42 ton truck could negotiate Stockport Road and Hibbert Lane with no issues as his computer model said so. As I said, a strong whiff of the smelly stuff.
The reality is that no one will listen to a few dayglo clad residents. We need action.
I propose the residents of Hibbert Lane, Cross Lane and associated areas should attempt to calculate the reduction in property values, coupled with the near impossibility of selling until the debacle is over one way or the other.
Then; recognising that we are law abiding citizens and cannot bend rules like the council or Asda we should ALL reduce our council tax direct debit by say £20. Not enough to cause a lack of revenue to vital services BUT by the time Stockport Council Tax Department has spent time and effort sending out hundreds of reminders, summonses etc, not to mention the fact that multiple summonses for £20 will cause them to be the laughing stock of the country.
We need to ensure that the suits know there is real anger here, we need to be brave and chuck a spanner in the works and stop the wheels of this monstrosity.
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Since when did a reduction proptery values become a planing issue they never have been nor should be.
Further why are you dismissive of the Council the Council Leader has had her letter published here in relation to the application. Are you saying you don't believe her???????
Finally why because you and a small number of other dint like an application are you proposing to steal £20 a month from the rest of us because that's what your suggesting
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I have followed the proposed development much like any other resident of Marple. Although I do not want the development on that site I genuinely feel that we have already lost. Crystallising my thoughts on Saturday when talking to a gentleman who wore a badge saying he was the accountant of the college. Whether he was or not is any body's guess. I queried the rule being applied by the burly security guards that only allowed 10 people in when 10 came out. Guess what reply I had? Its a Health and Safety issue! with too many people in the dining hall. I think he failed to get my point when I asked how many students occupy that hall during the day. In other words its all a fix. A picture of the hall during the consultation will reveal a low level of interest with a few people milling around. Further a smart suited traffic consultant was insistent that a 42 ton truck could negotiate Stockport Road and Hibbert Lane with no issues as his computer model said so. As I said, a strong whiff of the smelly stuff.
The reality is that no one will listen to a few dayglo clad residents. We need action.
I propose the residents of Hibbert Lane, Cross Lane and associated areas should attempt to calculate the reduction in property values, coupled with the near impossibility of selling until the debacle is over one way or the other.
Then; recognising that we are law abiding citizens and cannot bend rules like the council or Asda we should ALL reduce our council tax direct debit by say £20. Not enough to cause a lack of revenue to vital services BUT by the time Stockport Council Tax Department has spent time and effort sending out hundreds of reminders, summonses etc, not to mention the fact that multiple summonses for £20 will cause them to be the laughing stock of the country.
We need to ensure that the suits know there is real anger here, we need to be brave and chuck a spanner in the works and stop the wheels of this monstrosity.
And the law abiding citizens that do pay poll tax will be lumbered with a bigger bill for poll tax next year .
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We need to ensure that the suits know there is real anger here
There would certainly be plenty of 'real anger' if our children and grandchildren were denied the vital improvements to educational facilities which the college is planning.
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There would certainly be plenty of 'real anger' if our children and grandchildren were denied the vital improvements to educational facilities which the college is planning.
A real improvement in the standard of education would be an improvement in the local collage's results. Students will continue voting with their feet and going to local collage's that produce far better results. CAMSFC has for too long been getting rid of experienced staff, concentrating on the Cheadle site at the expense of Marple and failing to look at why their results are poor compared in relation to the local cohort.
The results speak for themselves!!!
Aquinas Coll 706 888.7
Cheadle and Marple Sixth Form Coll 884 663.9
Stockport Coll 399 654.6
The 1st figure is the number of students on roll and the second is the number of A/AS points per pupil.
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Students will continue voting with their feet and going to local collage's that produce far better results.
Agreed. Which is one reason (not the only one) why the college is proposing major improvements to its facilities in Marple.
CAMSFC has for too long been ...... concentrating on the Cheadle site at the expense of Marple and failing to look at why their results are poor compared in relation to the local cohort. The results speak for themselves!!!
Also agreed. Which is why it is welcome (and overdue) news that the college is now attending to the needs of our youngsters, rather than those on the other side of the A6.
As for OP's conspiracy theory ('it's all a fix'), the only conspiracy I'm aware of is the one between councillors, officers and our MP to do everything they can to stop the college bringing its buildings in to the 21st century. ::)
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Hello Rod,
Welcome to the website. I agree with you in part, unless something happens soon with the Chadwick Street Development then ASDA will win their case to develop Hibbert Lane. But I don't know why you are mad at the Council. They didn't sell the land to ASDA, they are just faced with the problem of keeping the College in town when they have no jurisdiction over the issue. Half the local Councillors have already said that they don't want the development, that they would vote against it and whether you believe them or not, and I've got my doubts, they can't really do any more to oppose it.
Everybody seems to focus on the ASDA but not on the College. I was talking to one of our local Councillors over the week-end and he/she (I won't name, it was a casual conversation) said ..."surely the prospective education of our young People and the continuance of the College in Marple is just as important if not more important to the people of Marple than where we buy our groceries from". And you know he/she is right !
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..."surely the prospective education of our young People and the continuance of the College in Marple is just as important if not more important to the people of Marple than where we buy our groceries from".
But it's not just where we get our groceries from - the proposed Asda has the potential to make life in the centre of Marple much less pleasant - and I assume many College students live in Marple. Traffic, noise and pollution will get worse, and the variety of shops will reduce if smaller shops close. Perhaps the non-resident councillors can't see this.
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I don't agree that people should 'take action' as not everybody is against the proposal. Indeed many people are either not bothered either way or in favour.
We need the new college and need more competition for the co-op. Only the Asda proposal can do both. Chadwick street won't help with lower prices unless the supermarket is an Aldi type discount store. Also many people like the idea of being able to get clothes etc from Asda.
Yes I feel for residents around the area and proposals should consider this in their plans (which they do seem to be doing).
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I was talking to one of our local Councillors over the week-end and he/she (I won't name, it was a casual conversation) said ..."surely the prospective education of our young People and the continuance of the College in Marple is just as important if not more important to the people of Marple than where we buy our groceries from". And you know he/she is right !
Good grief - a Marple councillor says something sensible on this subject at last! I don't know which one it was, Simone, and I'm not asking you to tell us, but sadly there are other councillors who do not take such a sensible view. :(
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"The results speak for themselves!!!
Aquinas Coll 706 888.7
Cheadle and Marple Sixth Form Coll 884 663.9
Stockport Coll 399 654.6
The 1st figure is the number of students on roll and the second is the number of A/AS points per pupil."
So spake Victor M
The results do indeed speak for themselves:
At a recent meeting with parents the Marple results were provided for those in attendance
At A level a 99.6% pass rate with 43.9% of students getting grade A or B
Level 3 Vocational pass rate of 100%
Level 2 Vocational pass rate of 100%
The highest value added score in Stockport
Give the staff and students the facilities that they deserve and who knows what could be achieved.
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The results do indeed speak for themselves:
At a recent meeting with parents the Marple results were provided for those in attendance
At A level a 99.6% pass rate with 43.9% of students getting grade A or B
Level 3 Vocational pass rate of 100%
Level 2 Vocational pass rate of 100%
The highest value added score in Stockport
Give the staff and students the facilities that they deserve and who knows what could be achieved.
Just shows what you can do with statistics! Results shown in this manner show absolutely nothing, if they were excellent results then they would be up there with Aquinas and other Manchester college's. They aren't, Aquinas has been producing results that put them in the top 100 for over a decade, until recently without any new modern facilities.
CAMSFC are trying to hide their performance behind the excuse of having 1930's buildings. In truth they have neglected the buildings on the Marple campus in favour of Cheadle, there is land at Cheadle that the college could sell for housing to raise revenue. Why have they not done that!
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[if they were excellent results then they would be up there with Aquinas and other Manchester college's. They aren't
But they are. Camsfc has The highest value added score in Stockport
Having said that, all these statistics are are largely irrelevant. Camsfc is the only college in town, and we all need to rally round, get behind it, and make sure that in the future it is able to provide the best possible facilities for our children and grandchildren.
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The status quo is absolutely not going to remain we need to accept that, particularly you Victor.
We're either going to have an ASDA and a new College in Marple or a new supermarket in Chadwick Street and no Asda and no new College or perhaps all three. There are some good shops in Marple but there are also some that are not so good either and I for one don't go in them and wouldn't really miss them.
Cyberman what will happen to local businesses if the College leaves town ? You only have to go into Marple any weekday- lunchtime and you can see all the students there. They are keeping some businesses in business. It doesn't have to be the best College in in England and it isn't, but it is our College and as Dave says we should support it.
What will happen to the Hibbert Lane site if Asda don't develop it ...Housing ? Is that any better than an Asda, maybe nothing. Housing developers are not easy to find in these straightened financial times and when you can find them they can't get the money from the banks. Maybe the site would fall to dereliction and vandal...maybe travellers! There's more footfall for local Marple businessess, Travellers marauding around Marple...looking for things to buy.
Cyberman, who are these non-resident Councillors you mention? Perhaps you could post the address of one of them. As far as I know; Alexander lives behind the Crown Pub, Bispham lives across from the Windsor Castle, Candler lives on Turncliffe, Dowling lives on Station Road, Ingham lives at the back of the Mill and Wright lives near the allotments, all in Marple...so who actually is non-resident in your view ? Do you expect them all to live on Hibbert Lane within site of the College?
There will be more traffic if Asda comes to town and that's a bad thing but so would there be with housing. Maybe more traffic is a price we have to pay for keeping the College.
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I started a thread in July on this forum entitled "What would the effect be on Marple if the college closed. Nearly everyone's view was that there was very little likelyhood of this happening. My view was
EDUCATION,
Currently all schools and colleges are having to cope with a decline in students because of the falling birth rate between 1992 - 2006, if CAMSFC closed then Marple Hall school (MHS) would probably open up a 6th Form. They would probably need to go for Academy status as that is the only way you can get funding for expansion these days. 6th Forms have already been established at New Mills & Poynton and very soon at Hazel Grove. Granted the subjects offerred would be a lot narrower than CAMSFC and they would probably find themselves concentrating on core mainstream subjects (History, English, Art, Geography etc.) and only offerring A levels. Those students who wanted BTEC level courses would probably have to travel to Stockport or Manchester College, and MHS would probably only be able to cater for students who were already attending the school. Students who currently travel from Derbyshire could easily manage to travel to Stockport or Buxton.
LAND
The college's sites on Buxton Lane & Hibbert lane would be sold for housing. However because of the size of the developments these, by law, would have to be a mix that would include Social Housing and Affordable Housing, both of which Marple is desperately short of. These new houses would increase the amount of daily traffic but probably not any more, and maybe less, than the proposed ASDA/Walmart Store.
Local Economy
Closure of the college would result in a reduction in jobs for some local people, however the 6th Form at MHS would need some extra staff, but there still would be an overall reduction. However the increase in population caused by the new houses would bring in more money into the local businesses, who would need to take on extra staff. So the negative impact on jobs of the college closing would probably be less/the same as the impact of a ASDA/Walmart being built.
ASDA/WALMART's PR consultants have taken the line that their best chance of obtaining planning permission is by spinning the story that the college could close. They have already sent a letter to all Councillors that lied about the facts! They will continue this line if they think it will help them gain public sympathy. These people are ruthless, please look at the facts and not the spin put out by them.
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That's interesting, Victor. What did the letter to councillors say, exactly?
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I don't think it is as simple as MHS could just 'have a 6th form'. It is already huge and has an increased catchment area now due to the closure of Offerton.
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Victor, we don't need to transfer anybody nor anything to MHS. Marple Hall School is a perfectly good Secondary School and C&MSFC is a perfectly good College. Let's leave them both as they are. Neither do I want MHS to apply for Academy status. I'm not convinced that schools that are independent of local authority management/support are in the best interests of either the children or the Teachers. What happens when a school burns down who steps in then, or what happens when a Headteacher or a bursar runs off with the school budget?
Victor, many of us don't want C&MSFC to leave town, we want to keep it here and if that means ASDA and a bit more traffic and a few closed businesses, then regrettable but unavoidable. For you keeping ASDA out is the issue, and I respect that but for me keeping the College in Marple is probably the issue. I think that I've probably just realised that and from many of the conversations I've been having lately, there's a lot of people that feel the same.
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Simonesaffron,
I don't think the two issues are linked, we can still have a College without an ASDA/WALMART. It is ASDA that has decided to link the two as a means of trying to blackmail the people of Marple. No where have I seen any evidence that the College could not continue without the ADSA/Walmart development.
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Victor, we don't need to transfer anybody nor anything to MHS. Marple Hall School is a perfectly good Secondary School and C&MSFC is a perfectly good College. Let's leave them both as they are. Neither do I want MHS to apply for Academy status. I'm not convinced that schools that are independent of local authority management/support are in the best interests of either the children or the Teachers. What happens when a school burns down who steps in then, or what happens when a Headteacher or a bursar runs off with the school budget?
Victor, many of us don't want C&MSFC to leave town, we want to keep it here and if that means ASDA and a bit more traffic and a few closed businesses, then regrettable but unavoidable. For you keeping ASDA out is the issue, and I respect that but for me keeping the College in Marple is probably the issue. I think that I've probably just realised that and from many of the conversations I've been having lately, there's a lot of people that feel the same.
Great post.
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No where have I seen any evidence that the College could not continue without the ADSA/Walmart development.
Yes, the college could struggle on for a few years yet, pouring ever-increasing amounts of taxpayers' money into maintaining its unsuitable and inefficient old buildings - money which could and should be spent on teaching our kids and grandkids. But this can't continue indefinitely - sooner or later something will have to be done, otherwise the college simply won't be able to afford to carry on. So why not now?
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Yes, the college could struggle on for a few years yet, pouring ever-increasing amounts of taxpayers' money into maintaining its unsuitable and inefficient old buildings - money which could and should be spent on teaching our kids and grandkids. But this can't continue indefinitely - sooner or later something will have to be done, otherwise the college simply won't be able to afford to carry on. So why not now?
They could also look at selling vacant land they own at the Cheadle site, and using the proceeds of that sale to revamp Buxton Lane. Please remember that Cheadle, for all the money thrown at it is seeing numbers fall, and if they continue the viability of the Cheadle site must be under review.
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Well perhaps they could, what would then suggest happens to the Hibbert Lane site? It seems to be still available for development if what you suggest were to happen. I think you have to accept that for me and many others many of the shops in Marple are just not worth saving as they provide an over priced product, dreadful customer service and open when they feel like it not when the majority of working people need them to be open.
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Well perhaps they could, what would then suggest happens to the Hibbert Lane site? It seems to be still available for development if what you suggest were to happen. I think you have to accept that for me and many others many of the shops in Marple are just not worth saving as they provide an over priced product, dreadful customer service and open when they feel like it not when the majority of working people need them to be open.
There are a lot of other people who do use the shops in Marple, are you saying that because you don't use them they should all go. I don't use Tesco but I don't use that as a reason for closing them down. The land would have to go for housing. Because of it's size some of that would be affordable housing. Do you not think that Marple needs affordable housing?
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No I am not saying that but I don't think a campaign can be run along the lines that if ASDA comes the town centre will die because I am not sure that the loss of many of our traders would be a loss at all.
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ASDA/WALMART's PR consultants have taken the line that their best chance of obtaining planning permission is by spinning the story that the college could close. They have already sent a letter to all Councillors that lied about the facts!
Victor,
What did the letter sent to all Councillors say?
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They could also look at selling vacant land they own at the Cheadle site, and using the proceeds of that sale to revamp Buxton Lane.
That would achieve nothing as far as those who oppose the supermarket are concerned. Here's why. If (and it's a big if) there is land on camsfc's Cheadle campus which is surplus to requirements and worth enough to finance a rebuild at Buxton Lane (i.e. about £12 million), then the college will still end up vacating and selling off the Hibbert Lane campus. At which point, the governors' legal obligation to sell to the highest bidder still remains - it would still go to a supermarket.
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At which point, the governors' legal obligation to sell to the highest bidder still remains - it would still go to a supermarket.
If the land cannot get planning permission for a Supermarket then it is worth diddly squat to a Supermarket, so the highest bidder would be a housing developer. Don't forget the College have already turned down a bid for £9M from a developer for the Hibbert Lane site. That coupled with the sale of land at Cheadle would have financed the refurbishment of Buxton Lane. One reason they may not want to sell the land at Cheadle is if they have expansion plans for that site, if they have I wonder where the money will come from?
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Victor,
What did the letter sent to all Councillors say?
Harry, unfortunately most people on this forum (apart from yourself) don't seem interested that Asda's PR spin machine is telling porkies. If more people were concerned I'd make my evidence public.
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Don't forget the College have already turned down a bid for £9M from a developer for the Hibbert Lane site.
I still can't see how someone other than a supermarket could make this land pay..
£9m may have been a sum banded about (I don't remember seeing any proof of this - happy if anyone can point me in this direction) - but there's no way a housing development would be profitable on the school building's footprint.
Even using the whole site including the open space I couldn't imagine a developer making profit from houses. Not with a £9m bid.
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£9m may have been a sum banded about (I don't remember seeing any proof of this - happy if anyone can point me in this direction)
There were 3 short listed developers interested in the Hibbert Lane site, Tesco, Asda and a developer from Altrincham who was involved with Waitrose. The proposed bid from Waitrose & the developer included a small supermarket and housing. This bid was sidelined by the college in favour of Asda or Tesco. In the end ASDA's bid for the site (without planning permission) was bigger than Tesco, who by the way bid the highest amount for the land but only if it had planning permission. Therefore all this talk of "The college has to sell the land to the highest bidder" is rubbish. The highest bidder was Tesco and they decided not to sell to them!
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In the end ASDA's bid for the site (without planning permission) was bigger than Tesco, who by the way bid the highest amount for the land but only if it had planning permission.
This is very interesting indeed. Maybe I've been dozy, but I was not aware that Asda had acquired the site unconditionally, and will therefore remain owners even if they don't get planning consent. If that is the case, they are taking quite a risk. What is the source for this fascinating information, Victor?
As for this:
Therefore all this talk of "The college has to sell the land to the highest bidder" is rubbish. The highest bidder was Tesco and they decided not to sell to them!
.... I have to plead guilty to using misleading words. It's not rubbish, but I could have expressed it more accurately. I've been a college governor (not at camsfc), and I know a bit about this. The basis of it lies in the governors' statutory duty to 'safeguard the assets of the institution', which is enshrined in the Instrument and Articles of all college governing bodies. This means, among many other things, that when the governors dispose of land or any other assets, they have a duty to do so on the best terms - so I should have used the words 'the best offer' rather than 'the highest bidder'. Given the obvious difficulties in getting planning permission for a supermarket in an area zoned for housing, the college and their legal advisers must have been astonished to receive an unconditional offer from Asda, and I can quite see that the lawyers could have advised the governors that an unconditional offer was a much better one than a higher offer which was conditional on getting planning consent. I hope that clarifies the position, and my apologies if I caused any confusion.
Meanwhile, I'm wondering why Victor is being so coy about Asda's letter to the councillors. Is there something there he doesn't want us to see :o
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Victor.. haven't you answered own argument there..?
ASDA's bid was without planning permission..
TESCO's bid was "only IF they had permission".. (which, of course, they didn't have)
So.. Armed with that information.. Tesco's bid sort of becomes irrelevant doesn't it? and the College accepts ASDAs bid.. (which, presumably, was higher than housing/waitrose)
Also - What did the letter sent to all Councillors say? I'm interested
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Also - What did the letter sent to all Councillors say? I'm interested
I'm interested too.....
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I'm interested too.....
When it reaches 10 I will divulge all, but really will it make any of you change your mind if I can prove that ASDA's spin doctors can't be trusted?
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I am also interested to know Victor. Will you have to get it from Miss Marple?
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I am also interested to know Victor. Will you have to get it from Miss Marple?
Sorry to disappoint but Miss Marple would not have a clue about what I'm talking about.
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I would suggest to Victor and others that if you want to see letters sent to local councillors then get yourself elected as a councillor. I always have respect for those who at leaset put themselves forward for election but those who cannot be bothered to even go through the effort of being elected but still expect the same rights and involvement as those who have are frankly arrogant and often self serving.
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I am also interested to know Victor. Will you have to get it from Miss Marple?
Sorry to disappoint but Miss Marple would not have a clue about what I'm talking about.
She now works for ASDA ,
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I think Victor IS Miss Marple. After all, has anyone ever seen them together.... ;-)
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Ok, I've added a poll - get voting to see that letter!
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Ok, I've added a poll - get voting to see that letter!
Where .....
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Ok, I've added a poll - get voting to see that letter!
Where .....
. At the top Amazon .
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I would suggest to Victor and others that if you want to see letters sent to local councillors then get yourself elected as a councillor. I always have respect for those who at leaset put themselves forward for election but those who cannot be bothered to even go through the effort of being elected but still expect the same rights and involvement as those who have are frankly arrogant and often self serving.
Wheels, I have no grouse with any local politician, no where in my messages have I said that I want to see a letter. I said I have seen a letter and can prove that ASDA's representatives, at a very senior level, have lied to Cllrs, by grossly misrepresenting the facts.
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I think Victor IS Miss Marple. After all, has anyone ever seen them together.... ;-)
Dave,
I take great offence at that post. How can anyone think I am Miss Marple!!!! I don't go round stating facts, posting readable messages etc.
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For technical reasons (he's not sure how to do it) I am attaching the letter from ASDA/CAMSFC + a set of minutes sent to me by Victor M:
I have also copied and pasted the paragraph from each document highlighted by Victor for ease of comparison:
Letter to Councillors:
We know that demolishing a College building and replacing it with a supermarket is controversial but that without it the Marple Campus faces an uncertain future – already students numbers have declined by 17% over the past four years, a trend not replicated at the Cheadle Campus. Aquinas and Stockport Colleges can now offer modern facilities encouraging students and their parents to vote with their feet and enrol at these modern campuses.
Minutes of College Corporation March 2012 (item 8.2.1.2):
Governors were also circulated with the Learner Numbers Data Report, updated from that presented to the Committee. TJS asked for clarification of the issues around the reduction in student numbers, the College having under-recruited against targets. AHU reported that the Recruitment Group was collating intelligence about drop in intake by school. The fall was mostly at Cheadle, where students were attracted to other providers for various reasons including financial incentives and travel time. The Group was looking at measures to address the fall in numbers.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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and ???????????? comes to mind
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and ???????????? comes to mind
Well, the thought "sell a campus in Marple to prop up the ailing Cheadle site" springs to mind.
Plus the clear duplicity on the part of college/ASDA.
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I think Victor IS Miss Marple. After all, has anyone ever seen them together.... ;-)
Dave,
I take great offence at that post. How can anyone think I am Miss Marple!!!! I don't go round stating facts, posting readable messages etc.
Well you have done now, as you have done in the past. It is very much appreciated by some of us on here. Well done Victor.
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and ???????????? comes to mind
Well, the thought "sell a campus in Marple to prop up the ailing Cheadle site" springs to mind.
Plus the clear duplicity on the part of college/ASDA.
I don't actually agree what you see as duplicity I see as good PR professionals doing their job.
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There seems to be a general agreement that 'new facilities' = better educational results. In a perfect world kids would be educated in lovely, well decorated buildings but if I was looking for a college I'd be asking about the leadership and the teaching. What will the new Buxton Lane campus offer which will improve results?
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It seems most of the students spend money in costa and greggs.
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I have read both of the documents which Victor has posted via Admin, and I can't see what the fuss is about. They are stating two different things.
The letter from Asda to the councillors says that student enrolments at the Marple campus of camsfc have fallen by 17% over the past four years.
The minutes of the college governors (March 2012) says that overall enrolments at both campuses (Cheadle and Marple) in 2011 - 2012 were down on the previous year, and the the fall was 'mostly at Cheadle'.
There is no reason why both statements can't be true. What's the problem, Victor?
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Dave,
Please read what was said by the ASDA senior manager he said
already students numbers have declined by 17% over the past four years, a trend not replicated at the Cheadle Campus
and the college principal said
The fall was mostly at Cheadle
The two statements can't be more in contradiction of each other.
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Have to agree with Dave here there is no conflict between the two statements.Victor you appear to be clutching at straws here.
JUst be thankful you habe got one of the better Local Authorities in the North West :) :) :) to oversee all this.
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Have to agree with Dave here there is no conflict between the two statements.
In one statement ASDA say that the 17% decline has not been replicated at Cheadle, thereby stating that the reduction has been 17% at Marple Campus. In the other statement the college Principal and the Financial Officer state that the fall in numbers has been greatest at Cheadle.
Please how can anyone say that the two statements are not complete contradictions of each other?
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Because one refers to a four year period and the other to one year. As Dave pointed out, they can both be true.
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As an example, consider the following figures (which are entirely fictional):
Cheadle Marple
Year 1 100 100
Year 2 110 90
Year 3 120 85
Year 4 100 83
Over the 4 year period Cheadle had no reduction and Marple had a reduction of 17 (which is also 17%).
Over the final year, year 4, Cheadle had a reduction of 20, while Marple only had a reduction of 2. So Cheadle had the greater fall in numbers.
Proof that both the earlier statements can be true.
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Perhaps the way to get to the truth of the matter is to use the real figures? I think they are published in the FOI site in answer to one of the questions on there.
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A bit of research has uncovered the Department of Education value added figures which suggest that our local college is actually is doing rather better than some other providers in supporting its students in order to enable them to realise their potential:
Aquinas College - 986.2
Cheadle and Marple Sixth Form College - 1000.8
Cheadle Hulme School - 1001.6
Stockport Academy - 980.9
Stockport College - 989.3
Stockport Grammar School - 1015.5
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As requested the figures available from the Freedom of Information act is for years 2007 - 2010.
The figures are a drop of 23.3% at Cheadle over that period and a drop of 12.5% at Marple. The base figures are available on the link below.
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/student_numbers_by_yearsitepostc#outgoing-150318 (http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/student_numbers_by_yearsitepostc#outgoing-150318)
Now Dave do you agree the statement by the Senior manager at ASDA was a lie?
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That spreadsheet tell a very interesting story, and unlike the extract from the governors minutes which was posted yesterday, those figures do suggest that Asda have been telling porkies, or have been misinformed by the college. :o
That said, the Asda letter referred to student data for the 'past four years' but those figures are for 2007 - 2010. Until we see the 2011 figures we don't know for certain what the 'past four years' trend has been. But we do know from those governors minutes that Cheadle undershot its target in 2011, so we can assume that the position is no better for last year.
The only other thing people need to know is that those figures are raw enrolments - they don't differentiate between a full-time student taking three A levels and someone who just pops in for a needlework class on a Tuesday evening. So if one of the campuses has a disproportionately high number of part-time enrolments it completely distorts any attempt at comparison.
The really meaningful figures are known as 'full-time equivalents' (FTEs for short), in which part-time enrolments are separated out from the full-time, and then added together to make full-time equivalents. I seem to recall that the usual formula is a multiple of ten part-time enrolments = 1 FTE. So if we really want to compare the position at Cheadle with the position at Marple, we need to see their FTEs. But I'll leave it to one of you FOI enthusiasts to chase that. ;D
Who was it who said 'there's lies, there's damn lies, and there's statistics'!
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I'm interested to know now why ASDA should lie about the figures to Cllrs. Is it because they are clutching at straws, or are they very ruthless in trying to persuade people and if they have lied so blatantly about this how much more of their propaganda is lies?
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I'm interested to know now why ASDA should lie about the figures to Cllrs. Is it because they are clutching at straws, or are they very ruthless in trying to persuade people and if they have lied so blatantly about this how much more of their propaganda is lies?
It does not seem to me that thay lied at all Victor, you seem not to understand the explainations given.
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Good questions! Maybe there is a hint of desperation, and that's hardly surprising if it's really true that they have bought the site unconditionally. If that's the case, and if they don't get planning permission, then they are stuck with a patch of land that's worth only a fraction of what they paid for it :-(
Which reminds me, Victor, could you let us have the source for your revelation that Asda have acquired the land unconditionally?
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Dave,
No I don't think ASDA have agreed to purchase the land without planning permission. What happened was that during the bidding process there were 3 interested parties. The college dismissed the 3rd bid as they were only offerring £9M. That left ASDA and Tesco going head to head. Both parties put in 2 bids one assuming that the land already had planning permission for retail, the other bid assuming the land did not have outline planning permission for retail. Tesco's bid, assuming the land had outline planning permission was the highest. However ASDA's bid for the land without outline planning permission was higher than Tesco's. Therefore the College went for the ASDA bid, but the bid was subject to ASDA being able to obtain the necessary planning approval. I hope that makes sense.
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ASDA's bid for the site (without planning permission) was bigger than Tesco,
No I don't think ASDA have agreed to purchase the land without planning permission. .... the bid was subject to ASDA being able to obtain the necessary planning approval.
I hope that makes sense.
No, it's utterly confusing. If the bid was 'subject to ASDA being able to obtain the necessary planning approval' then how on earth can it also be a 'bid for the site (without planning permission)'? :-\
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Dave,
It is a very confusing way they do these things, basically each bidder puts in 2 bids, one assuming the site has outline planning permission for Retail and one assuming it hasn't. The seller then decides which one to go for, if there is a wide difference between the high and low bid the seller then has the choice to obtain the outline planning permission themselves but bear the cost of obtaining that outline planning permission.
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OK, I think I get it! It's just about who pays for the planning application. So in this case, the deal is, Asda pay for the planning application. But if they don't get planning permission, the whole deal collapses and the ownership of the site reverts to camsfc. Is that it?
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But to get back to "fighting dirty" I'm not convinced that, if true, it is as dirty as handing out leaflets which state that significant elements of the college's curriculum are to disappear. I seem to remember that this totally unfounded accusation was made at about this time last year in a leaflet handed out to prospective students and their parents as they attended the college's open day. Glasshouses and all that...
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OK, I think I get it! It's just about who pays for the planning application. So in this case, the deal is, Asda pay for the planning application. But if they don't get planning permission, the whole deal collapses and the ownership of the site reverts to camsfc. Is that it?
Dave, that's about right. In cases like this, developers usually take out an 'option' to buy a site, I.e. they pay for the right to buy the site should planning permission be gained. They then pursue the planning application. The landowner doesn't have to do anything and still gets some cash from the option. Its a good idea as it reduces the risk for the developer as they are not left with a useless site should the planning process fail.
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Thanks belly, I get it ;D
As for Asda's interesting communication to our councillors, it's also interesting that although the letter is signed by an Asda person, it is also sent 'on behalf of Asda and Cheadle & Marple Sixth Form College.' So the college also stands by the assertion that 'students numbers [at Marple] have declined by 17% over the past four years, a trend not replicated at the Cheadle Campus,' even though its own data in that FOI response seem to suggest that this is not true. I say 'seem to suggest' because we still don't know for certain, and we won't know unless we see the 2011 figures, and also the enrolments expressed as full-time equivalents. This latter issue is important, because if, for example, the decline in enrolments at Cheadle is mostly in part-time students, whereas at Marple it is full-time students, than it could turn out that Marple's decline in FTE terms is greater than that at Cheadle.
But on the face of it, that statement does look pretty misleading, and I'm quite puzzled by it, because in my view the case for the college's improvement scheme is an overwhelmingly strong one, and they simply don't need to resort to issuing misleading information in order to support it.
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Well at least the “5 in 5 out” (latest news 8th October) shouldn’t have taken too long given the derisory turnout. The response to appeals by MIA for support at marches and public meetings over the past two months have seen falls of between 80% and 90% on the responses received to similar appeals a year ago. Why not put that in Latest News?
No mention yet of the announcement on 29th August that our MP has agreed to arrange for the petition to be presented at 10 Downing Street. Why not put that in Latest News?
No date arranged yet for the presentation. Is that because MIA are waiting to present it after the Asda CAMSFC planning application to give the false impression that it represents a public reaction to that application? Why not put that in latest news?
Despite 14 months of campaigning by MIA and its members, much of it fuelled by hyperbole, falsehoods, exaggeration and personal abuse, the online and paper petitions are still 5,500 names short of their target. Why not put that in Latest News?
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Admin,
What happened to that multi choice poll about ASDA/CAMSFC that you posted a few months back ? It seems to have disappeared or is it just me that can't find it ?
What were the outcomes for it ?
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Hello alstan
another little briefing from Asda's representative,I presume?
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Admin,
What happened to that multi choice poll about ASDA/CAMSFC that you posted a few months back ? It seems to have disappeared or is it just me that can't find it ?
What were the outcomes for it ?
I think it must just be you! I haven't posted a poll and I haven't removed any either. I think you are probably referring to this one created by "tricky":
http://www.marple-uk.com/smf/index.php?topic=4463.0
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That's very presumptious of you Henry. Wrong I am afraid. I don't neeed a briefing from Asda and would have considerable reservations about it if I did. I was present when the trip to Downing Street was announced. I was also able to count the attendance at the Area Committee Meeting, 79 members of the public, deducting those there for matters concerning Compstall and Mill Brow and some Yes campaigners, (of which I am not one), it leaves about 60 MIA supporters although it was difficult to tell, they were quite quiet. There were 300 at a comparable meeting last year, 60=20% of 300 and therefore represents a fall of 80%, with me so far?
MIA estimate that there were "about 200" at the march on 7th July. I witnessed it and I am confident that there were more that 150 although I don't think there were more than 200 so lets take that figure. At a similar march last year there were "1000+". You wont need me to run through the maths again but a drop of 80%+. OK?
It was easier to count the numbers at the last march as they straggled along the pavement. 108 but I suppose I could have missed a few toddlers. That represents a drop of 90% on last years figure of 1000+. I have since spoken to an MIA member who tells me they were dismayed and could offer no explanation other than "late notification" which doesn't cut the mustard.
Anyway, we will wait and see what MIA's response is, if any.
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The view has substantially changed within the town and MiAhave failed to respond to it, not that they had any influence at their peak as thankfully decisions are taken in a more rational way rather than mob rule and bullying/intimidation which was a feature of MiA a year ago.
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The view has substantially changed within the town and MiAhave failed to respond to it, not that they had any influence at their peak as thankfully decisions are taken in a more rational way rather than mob rule and bullying/intimidation which was a feature of MiA a year ago.
Still not had Mia views on the Chadwick street development are they for it or against it .
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The view has substantially changed within the town and MiAhave failed to respond to it, not that they had any influence at their peak as thankfully decisions are taken in a more rational way rather than mob rule and bullying/intimidation which was a feature of MiA a year ago.
Still not had Mia views on the Chadwick street development are they for it or against it .
Who cares what their views are anyway?
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The view has substantially changed within the town and MiAhave failed to respond to it, not that they had any influence at their peak as thankfully decisions are taken in a more rational way rather than mob rule and bullying/intimidation which was a feature of MiA a year ago.
Still not had Mia views on the Chadwick street development are they for it or against it .
Who cares what their views are anyway?
Ok how can they be against one and not the other it's still a smaller supermarket .
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The questions seem to be mounting. The questions not the answers.One of the principal allegations levelled at the college, sometimes in disgraceful terms, was that they were uncommunicative, that they failed to keep the community informed and so on. For an organisation that claims to represent the views of 80% of Marple people (I know, I know, I'm laughing too), the lack of response and communication with its community is surprising. Other than the chairman we know not who they are nor where they are.
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If you read the news section on the MIA page they clearly state they do not take a view either way re Chadwick Street.
Marple in Action was formed to fight the proposal for a supermarket on Hibbert Lane and as such, does not have a position for or against a development on Chadwick Street.
As far as I know they have only ever been against a supermarket on Hibbert Lane, not another supermarket in Marple.
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Looks like ASDA and the YES Campaign are starting to focus their big guns on this site. Lots of attempts to undermine MIA and any opposition to the store. The NO Campaign and its supporters are keeping their powder dry - they haven't gone away...
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Looks like ASDA and the YES Campaign are starting to focus their big guns on this site. Lots of attempts to undermine MIA and any opposition to the store. The NO Campaign and its supporters are keeping their powder dry - they haven't gone away...
Just diminished in numbers .
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Maria, previously on this website it is stated that “MIA would welcome a new supermarket within the district centre of Marple to provide competition for the Co-op and choice for local residents. “ Given that I would expect them to support the Chadwick Street proposal but they don’t and I would like to know why. So the puzzle is not why do they not oppose it, as they do Hibbert Lane, but why don’t they welcome it in accordance with the earlier statement
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Sleepless, who are the big guns then? I don't suppose you include me but, in case you do, I will come out of the closet.
I have lived in Marple for 33 years and I represent myself and myself alone. I am not part of any group, I feel no need for the comfort of the pack. I have nothing whatsoever to do with the Yes group. My contact with Asda has been limited to questions to their staff at the two public consultations, a letter which was posted in full on this forum and one telephone call regarding the number of anticipated deliveries.
I first became aware of this issue last July when the posters were put up and I turned to this website for more information. I found none, no information, just an increasing stream of speculation, rumour, fabrication, hyperbole and, sadly, abuse. I soon decided that it would not be possible for me to support a campaign which was expressed in these terms.
Nowhere in my posts have I argued for the building of a supermarket on Hibbert Lane and I have been no advocate for Asda. The closest I have got to expressing a view was on 21st December with a post “Personally I remain firmly on the fence until the facts emerge. If there is a plan to build a hypermarket, an “Extra” or something like it, on the site I will oppose it. If, however, there is a plan to build a supermarket commensurate with the widely recognized needs of the district and with architecture which owes at least something to the vernacular, such as it is, I believe that most of the opposition will simple evaporate."
That remains my position to this day. I cannot take a view on a planning application until there is a planning application to consider.
As you would expect of anyone who was once a governor of a college of further education I am passionate about the future of education for our maturing children and grandchildren in Marple. It seems to me that the college have a problem and that they have gone to some lengths to obtain professional advice as to solutions to that problem. The route they have chosen appears to be the only one available which might lead to a satisfactory conclusion.
Despite my current ambivalence towards the building of a supermarket on Hibbert Lane, I feel bitter towards the MIA campaign, not because of the message it seeks to broadcast but because of the way it has been done, The reliance upon scaremongering, hypothesis, hyperbole etc etc etc. The draft letter to the CEO of Asda set out in the December newsletter was the last straw. The hypocritical pretence that the campaign was all about education. How could any decent, honest, campaign promote something like that, especially when it threatens the future of the young in our community?
So, Sleepless, don’t assume that everyone who is critical of the MIA campaign is an American agent. Some people in Marple, many I expect, have got a brain and can think for themselves.
I hope you have a better night.
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I am passionate about the future of education for our maturing children and grandchildren in Marple. It seems to me that the college have a problem and that they have gone to some lengths to obtain professional advice as to solutions to that problem. The route they have chosen appears to be the only one available which might lead to a satisfactory conclusion.
Thank you alstan - well said.
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Outstand post alstan which encapsulates certainly my own view.
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not done that much reading since school,
excellent post alstan
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Brilliant post alstan.
Marple Inaction were warned countless times on these forums that they were discrediting themselves by scaremongering and this indeed came to a head with that awful newsletter 'template letter'. It was quite staggeringly bad - like a comedic parody of an outraged mob. Usually truth is stranger than fiction of course. They have been 'Fighting Dirty' since day 1 and it has hardly done them any favours.
They have told lies to get people to sign their petition, many of whom were not Marple residents. They have never listened to constructive criticism in any way and completely lacked any foresight, vision or strategy. There was never any transparency in their structure, finances or appointees. To think that they still somehow claim to be the voice of Marple and maybe still have the ear of councillors is quite sickening.
And as for the Big Guns of the Yes campaign??? This campaign is a facebook page with a few associated initiatives. Nothing more than that. Just a bunch of people who a) want a much better shopping option in Marple b) are disgusted by being told what to think by the reactionary and amateurish Marple Inaction c) can see that appropriately sized new supermarkets in comparable local towns do not ruin independent shopping in their centres and d) would rather the money funding any new supermarket went straight into local education.
The Yes campaign does not claim to be the voice of Marple, nor has everyone who is in favour of Asda on Hibbert Lane 'Liked' it.
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Brilliant post alstan.
Marple Inaction were warned countless times on these forums that they were discrediting themselves by scaremongering and this indeed came to a head with that awful newsletter 'template letter'. It was quite staggeringly bad - like a comedic parody of an outraged mob. Usually truth is stranger than fiction of course. They have been 'Fighting Dirty' since day 1 and it has hardly done them any favours.
They have told lies to get people to sign their petition, many of whom were not Marple residents. They have never listened to constructive criticism in any way and completely lacked any foresight, vision or strategy. There was never any transparency in their structure, finances or appointees. To think that they still somehow claim to be the voice of Marple and maybe still have the ear of councillors is quite sickening.
And as for the Big Guns of the Yes campaign??? This campaign is a facebook page with a few associated initiatives. Nothing more than that. Just a bunch of people who a) want a much better shopping option in Marple b) are disgusted by being told what to think by the reactionary and amateurish Marple Inaction c) can see that appropriately sized new supermarkets in comparable local towns do not ruin independent shopping in their centres and d) would rather the money funding any new supermarket went straight into local education.
The Yes campaign does not claim to be the voice of Marple, nor has everyone who is in favour of Asda on Hibbert Lane 'Liked' it.
Can someone from MIA tell us how many people from marple area have signed your petition . . And I mean from marple not Stockport Hyde Glossop etc .have a look through your small list please and let us know .
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Amazon, what does it matter where they live ?
Do you have to live in Marple to be against a supermarket on Hibbert Lane? If you are against it, you are against it.
My daughter is against it and she lives 50 miles away - So what ? Are you saying that she's not entitled to sign the "petition".
Nobody takes any notice of petitions anyway. When they were going to hang Ruth Ellis in the 1950"s a million people signed a petition against it - we all know what happened to her.
MIA have got nothing else now. They ran out of steam 12 months ago, the petition is all they have if they are to maintain that they have had any influence on the situation, which they haven't. What is just as interesting is how many people that live in Marple have not signed the petition, when they must have been asked a dozen times?
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Amazon, what does it matter where they live ?
Do you have to live in Marple to be against a supermarket on Hibbert Lane? If you are against it, you are against it.
My daughter is against it and she lives 50 miles away - So what ? Are you saying that she's not entitled to sign the "petition".
Well, it does, to a point. Arguments against the supermarket that are based on what is best for Marple's residents are undermined somewhat if it turns out that those making the arguements and their supporters aren't actually from Marple.
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Amazon, what does it matter where they live ?
Do you have to live in Marple to be against a supermarket on Hibbert Lane? If you are against it, you are against it.
My daughter is against it and she lives 50 miles away - So what ? Are you saying that she's not entitled to sign the "petition".
Well, it does, to a point. Arguments against the supermarket that are based on what is best for Marple's residents are undermined somewhat if it turns out that those making the arguements and their supporters aren't actually from Marple.
The petition will likely have little (if any) planning weight anyway, as most people signed before actually knowing what the details of proposals were. In such cases the petitions are generally considered to be unrelated to the application in hand.
MIA will probably need to collect another petition once the application is lodged if they want to use it at planning commitee.
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Amazon, what does it matter where they live ?
Do you have to live in Marple to be against a supermarket on Hibbert Lane? If you are against it, you are against it.
My daughter is against it and she lives 50 miles away - So what ? Are you saying that she's not entitled to sign the "petition".
Well, it does, to a point. Arguments against the supermarket that are based on what is best for Marple's residents are undermined somewhat if it turns out that those making the arguements and their supporters aren't actually from Marple.
Thank you .its like being in another town and somebody sticking a board I front of you will you sign this .even you've no interest in signing the petition in the first place .
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Amazon. You have no chance. MIA seem to be boycotting this part of their forum. I am told that they wish to "distance themselves" from the views expressed here by some of their supporters
Simone. Another reason it is important is that MIA have chosen to make it important. Elsewhere on the forum MIA have stated the number of registered voters in Marple North and Marple South wards and quoted their number of signatures and their target as a percentage of that electorate. They wish to obtain signatures exceeding 50% of voters.
While on the subject of the petition, I e-mailed our MP with an enquiry relating to his arrangements for the presentation of the petition at 10 Downing Street. 21 days and two reminders later I have received nothing other than acknowledgements. I subsequently obtained the information by email via the Cabinet Office in less than 24 hours.
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This has been said so many times before. MIA and there petition are totally irrelevant. MIA are not and never were making any decisions about anything.
I saw their tent in Marple yesterday, there was nobody there.
As it now looks very likely that the Hibbert Lane Asda won't happen they have to keep showing their face in order to claim a bit of the victory.
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As it now looks very likely that the Hibbert Lane Asda won't happen
Go on, what've I missed?
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This has been said so many times before. MIA and there petition are totally irrelevant. MIA are not and never were making any decisions about anything.
I saw their tent in Marple yesterday, there was nobody there.
As it now looks very likely that the Hibbert Lane Asda won't happen they have to keep showing their face in order to claim a bit of the victory.
So what info do you have to say it won't happen . What do you base your assumptions on .
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As it now looks very likely that the Hibbert Lane Asda won't happen ......
What makes you think this? I think its looking very likely that it will happen.
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From the outset, the camsfc/Asda scheme was a long shot, simply because the area is zoned for housing, not retail. Many of us assumed that for this reason, the planning application would be turned down by SMBC. However, it was also assumed that the application would then go to appeal, and that such an appeal might just succeed on the basis that:
1. There is evidence that many or even most of us go outside Marple to do our supermarket shopping,
2. A town of 23,000 people can support a decent sized-supermarket,
3. Hibbert Lane was the only site which was both suitable and available,
4. Government planning guidelines state that edge-of-centre sites can be developed where there is no suitable town-centre site.
However, now that the Chadwick Street scheme has been unveiled, with a 25,000 sq.ft retail area (the same as Hibbert Lane), that effectively disposes of most of the case which Asda and camsfc could have put forward at an appeal.
In which case, as Simone points out, the Hibbert Lane scheme is now looking pretty unlikely. Which probably puts paid to the college's development plan. A win for MIA, of course - but the losers are the young people of Marple. :'(
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Not necessarily Dave. Kirkland development have been in touch with the college before and may well do so once more.
We may well end up with another supermarket to challenge the Co-op and better facilities for the students yet without the proposed ASDA on Hibbert lane.
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Not necessarily Dave. Kirkland development have been in touch with the college before and may well do so once more.
We may well end up with another supermarket to challenge the Co-op and better facilities for the students yet without the proposed ASDA on Hibbert lane.
I've made a post relevant to this in the Chadwick St thread:
http://www.marple-uk.com/smf/index.php?topic=4619.msg27002#msg27002
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I'm all for education - I earned my living from it for many years - but Camfsc, going back to its old days as Cheadle & Marple College has a history of financial mismanagement. It's to be hoped that when they've got their new all-singing, all-dancing, shiny new buildings they will also have got their act together and learned to do sums.
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Cheadle & Marple College has a history of financial mismanagement.
That is a serious accusation, Henrietta. Have you got any evidence to back it up?
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I'm all for education - I earned my living from it for many years - but Camfsc, going back to its old days as Cheadle & Marple College has a history of financial mismanagement. It's to be hoped that when they've got their new all-singing, all-dancing, shiny new buildings they will also have got their act together and learned to do sums.
Henrietta, this is a libellous accusation. I am sure that you just threw this away like we often do and that you don't reslly mean it. CAMSFC may not be the best at community, public relations but there is no evidence of any kind that I've ever come across that suggests that they are guilty of ..."financial mismanagement". If you know different then like Dave I'd be interested in hearing about it.
I only hope for your sake that nobody from CAMSFC is reading this or you could find yourself on the wrong end of a libel action. If I can presume to advise, I'd retract now.
Remember, Lord McAlpine.
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Calm down. To say something has been "mismanaged" is an opinion. Did Gordon Brown "mismanage" the UK economy leading to a massive national debt? If I write to him and accuse him of this,is he going to sue me? There is a significant difference between mismanagement and other accusations such as fraud, maladministration etc.
I make no comment about the effectiveness of financial management at this College. However, I certainly know that FE and Sixth Form Colleges are under huge financial strain at the moment due to severe cuts in funding rates from both main funding bodies.
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Did Gordon Brown "mismanage" the UK economy leading to a massive national debt?
Not really, no. In fact, some would argue that it was Brown who rescued the world banking system from complete and catastrophic collapse in October 2008! But let's not go there - the last thing we want is Duke joining in...... ;D
Btw, what's the difference between mismanagement and maladministration?
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Bowden Guy,
I thought you were going to follow that Cameronesque assertion with the word "madam" for a moment.
I think accusing someone of "financial mismanagement" is a bit more than an "opinion". I don't recall anybody going to jail for it but I can certainly think of a few who have had their careers ruined as a consequence of this allegation. Any way the point for me is that it shouldn't be made (like many allegations on this site) unless it can be evidenced and obviously it can't, so it is just idle, unintelligent speculation or if you like gossip.
With respect I think that everybody in the UK knows that if your survival is dependent upon some kind of public funding then you are under some kind of strain under the current political/economic climate. With this in mind CAMSFC is no different than any other institution of its kind.
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The planning application for Asda is in Marple Library,it is a big application make sure you have plenty of time to read it........
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The planning application for Asda is in Marple Library,it is a big application make sure you have plenty of time to read it........
Its also here...... http://planning.stockport.gov.uk/PlanningData/AcolNetCGI.gov?ACTION=UNWRAP&RIPNAME=Root.PgeResultDetail&TheSystemkey=116256 (http://planning.stockport.gov.uk/PlanningData/AcolNetCGI.gov?ACTION=UNWRAP&RIPNAME=Root.PgeResultDetail&TheSystemkey=116256)
Or at least some of it is.......... ???
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Yes, lots to read there, although one of the most useful bits of information is easy to find on the front page: that the college's development at Buxton Lane involves the construction of '6,473 sqm of new educational floorspace, together with car parking and landscaping works, [and] construction of synthetic floodlight pitch'.
I've mentioned a couple of times before that there's a general assumed cost for the construction of educational buildings of around £1,500 per sq.m. However, there's a document towards the bottom of the documents list, entitled 'Planning Statement Appendix 1', which gives actual estimates for the costs as follows:
Remodelled Buxton Lane buildings: 1,100m2 £1.0M = £909 £/m2
New-build sports, street & teaching: 6,200m2 £11.0M = £1,774 £/m2
TOTAL COST: £12.1M
So the scheme involves spending a million on improvements to some of the existing buildings at Buxton Lane, and demolishing the rest, to be replaced by new build costing 11 million. Obviously the gross area of new space has increased slightly since this document was produced, from 6,200 sq.m. to 6,473 sq.m. And it's interesting to note in this document that the existing floor area of the college's two buildings amounts to 14,100 sq.m - so they will end up with just over half the space they currently occupy. A tight fit!
Section 3.0 of the same document also confirms reports that the college has a Plan B, for use in the event that the Asda scheme fails to get planning consent, and they have to dispose of the Hibbert Lane land for residential use for around £4.5 million. This is inevitably a very limited scheme, in which all the existing Buxton Lane buildings are retained and remodelled, and a relatively small amount of additional new space (1,800 sq.m) is provided.
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Ive just seen this, and had a quick look through the acoustic report in the planning app.
Ive only skimmed at this stage, but interestingly, i did notice the criteria that has been set for noise is 5dB above the lowest measured background (bear with me). The criteria usually set in Stockport is 10dB below, meaning Asda have had it lenient to the tune of 15dB (a huge amount, its a logarithmic scale).
To put into context, If the noise is 10dB lower it would be generally inaudible. If the same it would increase by 3dB, a small but noticeable amount. If 10dB higher, its perceived as a doubling of volume. So 5dB is definitely noticeable. But to be fair, 5dB above is not an uncommon criterion elsewhere.
It says that this was agreed with the EHO in Stockport, but not which one...
Why do asda appear to have a far more generous criterion than elsewhere in Stockport?
Funny they used a consultancy based in Portsmouth(!) We were approached but declined...
Ill have a proper read through and see what else leaps out.
Ta
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Also makes reference to a 3.5m high (11 1/2 foot) acoustic fence to maintain the acoustic criterion... could be an eyesore, seems a bit of a flimsy requirement which could possibly be challenged. Without it levels would be around 11-15dB higher.
More when i can read it properly.
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Also makes reference to a 3.5m high (11 1/2 foot) acoustic fence to maintain the acoustic criterion... could be an eyesore
Possibly, but what is there at the moment - my recollection is that it's quite tall wooden fence panels with tall bushes/scrubs, so would this actually be any worse, or just the same but different?