Marple Website Community Calendar
Archive => Archived Boards => Local Issues => Topic started by: Golfballbazooka on December 01, 2014, 01:15:20 AM
-
I'm sure I'm not the only person in Marple who is getting sick and tired of the poor rail service we get in Manchester. The 142 pacers in service at the minute are dirty, slow, unreliable and above all... Dangerous! The trains are constantly packed to the point where sometimes you can't physically get on the train to get home! I'm sure I'm not the only one that gets really frustrated with this bad service we are getting, but I'm stuck on what I can do to make it better? I could email northern rail, but really... What good would that do! I've thought about writing to my MP but I don't know if it's just a drop in the ocean. I'm really coming to the end of my tether with northern rail, for someone who commutes to rochdale daily, train is the only way to commute. With a ticket that's supposed to cost £4.20 costing a staggering £10.00 during peak times in the evening. Where on earth is this extra money going? And how is it justifiable paying over 100% extra for a peak time train that is late, cancelled or packed!
Anyone with stories about northern rail and the issues I've highlighted or any ideas on how to combat the issue, please respond! Thanks.
-
You are not the only person who is is tired of the rail service. The worst problem by far is the gross overcrowding of commuter-time trains, particularly when Northern Rail consistently send in two-carriage trains when there are people standing all the way to or from Marple. There are also some crass platform-assignment decisions at Manchester Piccadilly and some ludicrous time-wasting episodes. (e.g. Why do we all have to get off a 4-carriage train whilst it is split in two - two problems, why are you reducing a 4-carriage train to an overcrowded 2-carriage one, and why can't we just stay seated whilst you move trains forward 6 inches.)
Although most of the ticket staff at Marple Station are really decent and polite, there are also some real jobs-worth decisions made there: why, exactly, can't they open more doors through and around the ticket office?
-
Where on earth is this extra money going?
It's going into the well-lined pockets of the Northern Rail's franchise holders for the past ten years, Serco and Abellio. Serco, of course, is the notorious UK outsourcing company, which has an appalling history of failures, fraud, errors and overcharging. Abellio is owned by the Dutch state rail company, Nederlandse Spoorwagen, so the profits they make from overcharging us go into the pockets of the Dutch government and therefore, indirectly, into the pockets of Dutch taxpayers.
Northern Rail is the most highly subsidised railway company in the UK, and it must also be one of the worst - certainly if you judge it by the quality of its rolling stock.
To answer Golfball's question directly, yes, I think it is always worth writing to one's MP about this kind of issue. That said, there does at last seem to be a very belated recognition among our politicians that something needs to be done about the Class 142 trains. I even heard Nick Clegg say so on the radio the other day. There must be an election coming up .......
Astonishingly, considering the appalling quality of its service, the existing Northern Rail franchise was extended last year, until Feb 2016. Three companies have been shortlisted to bid for the new franchise: Arriva, Govia, and Abellio (but not Serco, of course). As Arriva is owned by Deutsche Bahn, there is therefore a two-to-one chance that our local rail services will be returned to public ownership. Foreign public ownership, that is! ::)
-
I don't travel regularly but I was a bit shocked when the peak return fair to Picadilly went from 3.90 (and 3.80 the year before) to over £6 a few months ago !
-
Northern Rail are an utter joke and widely known as the worst and most heavily subsidised rail company in the UK. Their rolling stock is appalling, especially the Pacers introduced in 1984. Its expected lifespan in the UK was 14 years and WE'RE STILL USING VARIATIONS OF THEM.
At the end of their career with British Rail, most members of the class were sold to Islamic Republic of Iran Railways and were exported during the early 2000s. Those trains have since been withdrawn and replaced by new trains. Here's the current state of them in Iran.
(http://share.bahnforum.info/transfer/e825dbc060ecc7caa98ce2687fe5a58c9db17011/Iran_2013/IMG_2301_1.JPG)
If Iran can get rid of them then why can't Northern Rail?
-
I don't travel regularly but I was a bit shocked when the peak return fair to Picadilly went from 3.90 (and 3.80 the year before) to over £6 a few months ago !
Its a long time since a peak fare was under £4. A year ago the peak fare was £6.10 return, with the off peak at £3.70. I consider this good value when it also includes city centre metro use.
-
I'm sure I'm not the only person in Marple who is getting sick and tired of the poor rail service we get in Manchester. The 142 pacers in service at the minute are dirty, slow, unreliable and above all... Dangerous! The trains are constantly packed to the point where sometimes you can't physically get on the train to get home! I'm sure I'm not the only one that gets really frustrated with this bad service we are getting, but I'm stuck on what I can do to make it better? I could email northern rail, but really... What good would that do! I've thought about writing to my MP but I don't know if it's just a drop in the ocean. I'm really coming to the end of my tether with northern rail, for someone who commutes to rochdale daily, train is the only way to commute. With a ticket that's supposed to cost £4.20 costing a staggering £10.00 during peak times in the evening. Where on earth is this extra money going? And how is it justifiable paying over 100% extra for a peak time train that is late, cancelled or packed!
Anyone with stories about northern rail and the issues I've highlighted or any ideas on how to combat the issue, please respond! Thanks.
"I've thought about writing to my MP" Well, it would be a start.
I'm fortunate in not needing to use this service very often these days but when I do I feel very sorry for the regular users. Is there any future in trying to organise the users you see regularly to "bomb" the MP(s) with letters and emails and attendance at surgeries? Likewise, mass letters of complaint to the body which is supposed to have influence and control over the service providers with copies sent to the service providers?
On your own, you're a drop in the ocean but if lots of people get involved you make a flood.
I've found on other campaigns in the past that the knack is to make it harder for "them" to ignore you than it is to do something about it. I hope you get some constructive suggestions from others on here.
-
I was listening to a programme on the radio about businesses and how they respond to complaints and the best way to complain is via Twitter. Apparently the companies don't like the complaints to be in the public domain so usually sort them out quickly. It's worth a try.
-
I was listening to a programme on the radio about businesses and how they respond to complaints and the best way to complain is via Twitter. Apparently the companies don't like the complaints to be in the public domain so usually sort them out quickly. It's worth a try.
Excellent idea.
-
Well, you can read their regular twitter information at https://twitter.com/northernrailorg (https://twitter.com/northernrailorg) or @northernrailorg.
Evening of Monday 1st December has to be one of their most dire periods ever: two hours waiting on the Piccadilly station concourse for a series of train services that were, sequentially,
delayed - cancelled -reinstated -delayed -cancelled
after points failures at Ashburys.
Says it all when the rail-replacement buses that turned up were all booked out to Transpennine Express, not Northern Rail.
-
Well, you can read their regular twitter information at https://twitter.com/northernrailorg (https://twitter.com/northernrailorg) or @northernrailorg.
Evening of Monday 1st December has to be one of their most dire periods ever: two hours waiting on the Piccadilly station concourse for a series of train services that were, sequentially,
delayed - cancelled -reinstated -delayed -cancelled
after points failures at Ashburys.
Says it all when the rail-replacement buses that turned up were all booked out to Transpennine Express, not Northern Rail.
While I agree that Northern Rail are the pits, it's hardly fair to blame them for a points failure.
-
I was listening to a programme on the radio about businesses and how they respond to complaints and the best way to complain is via Twitter. Apparently the companies don't like the complaints to be in the public domain so usually sort them out quickly. It's worth a try.
That may well be good advice when complaining about a problem which it is within the power of the company itself to resolve But this is different. The power to do something about our rubbish trains lies fair and square with the politicians themselves. Right now, and over the next 15 months or so, the DFT will be dealing with the new NR franchise which is due to start in Feb 2016. If they decide to make it a condition of bidding that companies must set out their plans to modernise and replace rolling stock, and specifically these Class 142 'Pacer' trains, then that would be a big step towards resolving the problem.
-
The Northern Rail Passengers Charter is at http://www.northernrail.org/pdfs/passengers_charter_july2012.pdf (http://www.northernrail.org/pdfs/passengers_charter_july2012.pdf). Section 6 is about the trains. Delighted to know that they think it reasonable that the number of standing passengers can exceed seat capacity by 35% (exceeded daily on the two-carriage 0810 service from Marple and many evening services). No other organisation would allow you to block the emergency exit routes with this number of people. I wonder if you could actually take it up with the HSE.
As for the "We will maintain our trains in a good condition and to a high standard of cleanliness" bit ...
-
Rammed into a corner of the 8.10 recently, I tried to count the number of standing passengers. I reckon there are about 50 seats in each carriage, and on this occasion I counted roughly the same number of standing passengers in each carriage. That's not exceeding seat capacity by 35%. It's 100%!
And it's not just the 8.10 either. The late trains from Piccadilly are almost as bad, especially at weekends. (At least the passengers on the 8.10 are sober...... :D)
-
I reckon there are about 50 seats in each carriage, and on this occasion I counted roughly the same number of standing passengers in each carriage.
100 passengers per carriage, radiating about 100W each, gives 10kW. Who needs heating?!
At least the passengers on the 8.10 are sober......
If you travel regularly on Northern Rail, sometimes alcohol helps! ;)
-
"I've thought about writing to my MP" Well, it would be a start.
Well, there is no need, in his autumn statement, just 4 years into the coalition govt, there is a pledge to replace the Pacer train. The former government had 13 years so well done the coalition government.
-
From the Autumn Statement.
"Old pacer carriages on Northern Rail and the Trans-Pennine Express replaced with new and modern trains"
but how long until we get the new trains?
-
I for one am not holding my breath waiting for these new trains! We shall have to wait (as usual) for London and the South East to be given priority.
-
Well, there is no need, in his autumn statement, just 4 years into the coalition govt, there is a pledge to replace the Pacer train. The former government had 13 years so well done the coalition government.
Here's the link BBC News : Key points of 2014 Autumn Statement: At-a-glance (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30307528)
Old pacer carriages on Northern Rail and the Trans-Pennine Express replaced with new and modern trains
Tendering for Northern Rail and Trans-Pennine Express franchises to replace pacer carriages with modern trains
Hope they replace the Pacer trains before they abolish all the guards from the service, mind.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/320806/northern-transpennine-consultation.pdf (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/320806/northern-transpennine-consultation.pdf)
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/keep-safety-critical-conductors-on-the-train-at-northern-rail (https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/keep-safety-critical-conductors-on-the-train-at-northern-rail)
-
Here's the link BBC News : Key points of 2014 Autumn Statement: At-a-glance (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30307528)
Old pacer carriages on Northern Rail and the Trans-Pennine Express replaced with new and modern trains
As you see, that particular paragraph in the "Business and Science" bit of the Autumn Statement is in good company ...
Old pacer carriages on Northern Rail and the Trans-Pennine Express replaced with new and modern trains
National Insurance on young apprentices abolished
Britain awarded the lead role in the international effort to explore Mars
-
And that is way the franchises was extended, as they could not decide about new trains until they know what was going to become electric.
But will be get a tram to Rose Hill before the new trains arrive...
-
I for one am not holding my breath waiting for these new trains! We shall have to wait (as usual) for London and the South East to be given priority.
Babs do you want salt & vinegar on those chips.
-
Here's the link BBC News : Key points of 2014 Autumn Statement: At-a-glance (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30307528)
Old pacer carriages on Northern Rail and the Trans-Pennine Express replaced with new and modern trains
Tendering for Northern Rail and Trans-Pennine Express franchises to replace pacer carriages with modern trains
Hope they replace the Pacer trains before they abolish all the guards from the service, mind.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/320806/northern-transpennine-consultation.pdf (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/320806/northern-transpennine-consultation.pdf)
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/keep-safety-critical-conductors-on-the-train-at-northern-rail (https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/keep-safety-critical-conductors-on-the-train-at-northern-rail)
Why, it always seems strange to be that we have manned stations and a ticket man on the train, it makes sense to replace it al with automated barriers.
-
From the Autumn Statement.
"Old pacer carriages on Northern Rail and the Trans-Pennine Express replaced with new and modern trains"
but how long until we get the new trains?
Indeed. And if the Chancellor actually referred to Pacers on Trans-Pennine Express then he needs to get his facts straight - there aren't any! But it doesn't inspire confidence, does it! ::) If he can't get such such simple facts right, then why should we believe anything he says?
-
Indeed. And if the Chancellor actually referred to Pacers on Trans-Pennine Express then he needs to get his facts straight - there aren't any! But it doesn't inspire confidence, does it! ::) If he can't get such such simple facts right, then why should we believe anything he says?
Or someone who used to work in education may pay attention to the wording, I'll let you do the maths or err English.
I suspect Northern will get the TPE trains as TPE give up the leases. That said, they will be fine for the Marple line although I'm not sure how they will keep them clean unless they are refurbed and the carpets etc taken out.
-
Babs do you want salt & vinegar on those chips.
As someone who has commuted by rail from Stockport to Surrey via London for the past six weeks, I think I can say without undue prejudice that the South has it much, much better than the North in terms of rail services. Gleaming modern trains with 8-12 coaches are standard fare just for regional commuter services.
If any service down there had a 142 on it, it would probably be headline national news.
-
Melancholy is spot on - the difference is jaw-dropping! Our friends from the soft south can't believe it when they see our trains.
And it's not just the London commuters who have better trains. A few months ago I went to the Isle of Wight by train. You catch a Bournemouth train from Stockport, and get off at Brockenhurst. From there it's a ten minute ride on a five-mile single track branch line to Lymington Pier, where the ferry goes from. The train that shuttles back and forth on this very short and obscure line is a smartly refurbished and comfortable Class 158. Meanwhile, on a 40 mile route between two of the UK's major cities, Manchester and Sheffield, we get the ridiculous little class 142 pacers.
As for this: just 4 years into the coalition govt, there is a pledge to replace the Pacer train. The former government had 13 years so well done the coalition government.
... no cheers for the Tories, who were responsible for introducing these cheap and nasty little trains in the first place!
-
As someone who has commuted by rail from Stockport to Surrey via London for the past six weeks, I think I can say without undue prejudice that the South has it much, much better than the North in terms of rail services. Gleaming modern trains with 8-12 coaches are standard fare just for regional commuter services.
If any service down there had a 142 on it, it would probably be headline national news.
In fairness, they all work & don't claim benefits
-
Melancholy is spot on - the difference is jaw-dropping! Our friends from the soft south can't believe it when they see our trains.
And it's not just the London commuters who have better trains. A few months ago I went to the Isle of Wight by train. You catch a Bournemouth train from Stockport, and get off at Brockenhurst. From there it's a ten minute ride on a five-mile single track branch line to Lymington Pier, where the ferry goes from. The train that shuttles back and forth on this very short and obscure line is a smartly refurbished and comfortable Class 158. Meanwhile, on a 40 mile route between two of the UK's major cities, Manchester and Sheffield, we get the ridiculous little class 142 pacers.
As for this: ... no cheers for the Tories, who were responsible for introducing these cheap and nasty little trains in the first place!
It's not a north-south thing, it's South-East versus the rest. Bristol and the south-west have an appalling rail service especially when compared to Greater Manchester. Greater Bristol has a population of over a million people yet has only a fraction of the suburban lines Manchester enjoys (all unelectrified) and all the trains are equally as decrepit as those on the Hope Valley line. Also they have been refused funding by government for a metro/tram system countless times since the 1970's. Aside from the South-East, Manchester is relatively well served by rail and tram. That doesn't mean to say I'm happy about the stinking 142s as I'm a bitter, regular rail commuter from Marple to Manchester.
:'(
-
As for this: ... no cheers for the Tories, who were responsible for introducing these cheap and nasty little trains in the first place!
Wasn't that symptomatic of a nationalised rail system that the domestic producers could get away with supplying something that wasn't that great in the knowledge that the customer could not go elsewhere
-
Wasn't that symptomatic of a nationalised rail system that the domestic producers could get away with supplying something that wasn't that great in the knowledge that the customer could not go elsewhere
The Pacer was a reasonable choose at the time, as they were only intended as a short-term solution to a shortage of rolling stock. It was intended that they would have been replaced by existing much better DMUs cascaded from newly electrified lines a long time ago!
At the time the other option would have been to close a lot of the rural branch lines that had few passengers, hence making everyone use buses. Since then more people have started to commute by rail. (Remember that as that time most buses had the same seats as the Pacers.)
Just looking at Rose Hill, the passenger numbers have nearly double over the last 10 years.
Therefore new trains or trams are needed as quickly as possible.
-
Yes, we should be grateful that privatisation has brought us such a wide choice of railway companies providing services into Manchester. ;-)
-
The Pacer was a reasonable choose at the time, as they were only intended as a short-term solution to a shortage of rolling stock. It was intended that they would have been replaced by existing much better DMUs cascaded from newly electrified lines a long time ago!
At the time the other option would have been to close a lot of the rural branch lines that had few passengers, hence making everyone use buses. Since then more people have started to commute by rail. (Remember that as that time most buses had the same seats as the Pacers.)
Just looking at Rose Hill, the passenger numbers have nearly double over the last 10 years.
Therefore new trains or trams are needed as quickly as possible.
I was meaning that nationalised industries were not allowed to source away from the other state suppliers. Protecting the state suppliers allowed them to avoid innovating hence the trains supplied by British Leyland weren't as gos as those built abroad. By hte time a real market as introduced, the British suppliers had a sub-standard product and the new TOCs went abroad for their rolling stock.
-
Duke engages in his usual effortful contortions to turn this thread about trains into one about politics.
The pacers were built by British Rail Engineering in Derby, using some designs and technologies borrowed from British Leyland. The reason they built a rubbish train was nowt to do with being a nationalised industry - it was simply because, as ringi points out, that was in effect what the customer (British Rail) had asked for - something temporary and as cheap as possible.
Thankfully, the privatised train companies don't always go abroad for their trains - many of them are still built at the same Derby works, now owned by Bombardier.
Btw, now I've seen everything: http://www.pacerpreservationsociety.co.uk/ ;D
-
Duke engages in his usual effortful contortions to turn this thread about trains into one about politics.
Hmmmmm cough
... no cheers for the Tories, who were responsible for introducing these cheap and nasty little trains in the first place!
Glasshouses dear boy
-
Yes, we should be grateful that privatisation has brought us such a wide choice of railway companies providing services into Manchester. ;-)
I have no truck for Duke he is usually wrong but Dave I think pot and kettle come to mind when you accuse him of turning a debate about trains into a political debate.
As an aside isn't everything in life political???
-
Not guilty, m'lud! For its first 14 posts, this thread was not remotely political. As long as Duke stayed out of it, it was just about trains.
Then up pops Duke for the first time in post no 15, and contributes this:
Well, there is no need, in his autumn statement, just 4 years into the coalition govt, there is a pledge to replace the Pacer train. The former government had 13 years so well done the coalition government.
I rest my case. :D
-
thanks for the barriers comment duke , i will go and claim my job seekers. i work for northern firstly as atrain driver and now in a ticket office.in the time ive worked in the office the flow off passengers has quadrupled.the reason no more rolling stock has been implemented as no company/buisness would spend millions on new stock if they wernt assured they would get their return out of them. and as for the trains being manafactured abroad, the pendalinos ,class 170/175 ,london docklands where all made in compstall.beard and cornall would still be in buisness if it wasnt down to the franchise system.
-
Not guilty, m'lud! For its first 14 posts, this thread was not remotely political. As long as Duke stayed out of it, it was just about trains.
Then up pops Duke for the first time in post no 15, and contributes this:
I rest my case. :D
Well, given the suggestion was to contact your MP and that day the chancellor specifically announced investment to replace the pacer, I'd say I was on topic.