Marple Wharf Development

[rsh]

Surprised, as I have been all to often in the past, by the bizarre collection of opinions this forum attracts when a very worthy cause presents itself.

So I presume Dave, amazon, etc you’re gleefully awaiting the “for sale” sign to go up on this residential conversion? And none of us will EVER be able to step inside? Why?! If you (clearly) don’t care about the building, why bother posting.

1000+ signatures don’t paint the same picture of public opinion...

[wheels]

By the way, I meant to ask, MCS said seven years ago that they were going to submit a Heritage Lottery Fund application for this scheme. Did they?

s

Is this the group of individuals(MCS) answerable and accountable to nobody. Those who shout loudest...... It that who you mean Dave.

[amazon]

By the way, I meant to ask, MCS said seven years ago that they were going to submit a Heritage Lottery Fund application for this scheme. Did they?

Notice you are still waiting for a reply Dave

[Condate]

The relevant bit is this: 'Charity land sales and leases - legal requirements. The law says you must.. try to get the best deal for your charity'.

Does that really mean the best financial deal? That would be insane. Surely it must mean the best deal which promotes the aim of the charity. Anything else would be madness.

[Dave]

By the way, I meant to ask, MCS said seven years ago that they were going to submit a Heritage Lottery Fund application for this scheme. Did they?

[Dave]

The business plan has been formulated by a group of about ten people, led by Councillor Sue Ingham, and Marple Civic Society is heavily involved... Because of the attitude of CRT in demanding full residential value for the warehouse we don't want to release figures as we think they will just try to rubbish them and use them to get their planning consent.

If you have so little confidence in your plan that you dare not publish it then you can hardly expect anyone else to take it seriously!

There has been a suggestion that CRT can only 'dispose of assets at their full value'. However the proposed use is fully inline with their charitably status, so this consideration simply does not apply.

It's nothing to do with the compatibility of your proposed use with the CRT's charitable status.  See https://www.gov.uk/guidance/charity-land-and-property. The relevant bit is this: 'Charity land sales and leases - legal requirements. The law says you must.. try to get the best deal for your charity'. As I said before, there are ways round that. If you read on past that bit you'll see that charities can sell for less than full market value if they get the consent of the Charity Commission. And that can be done - I've done it myself - but you have to make a good case, supported by a viable business plan (not a secret one!), and you need key political supporters onside, including your MP and your local authority.

It would be great to see that historic building transformed into a visitor centre, but you need to make a powerful public case for it, and I think you may now have missed the moment, sadly.

[amazon]

Sorry, didn't realise there was a reply...
1. The business plan has been formulated by a group of about ten people, led by Councillor Sue Ingham, and Marple Civic Society is heavily involved. It contains the sort of uses you would expect with cafe, heritage displays, community and exercise class meeting space. Many other similar facilities have been found to be viable in other parts of Britain, but obviously this depends on the purchase price. Because of the attitude of CRT in demanding full residential value for the warehouse we don't want to release figures as we think they will just try to rubbish them and use them to get their planning consent. We do still want to talk sensibly with them, but the planning application is a gun to our heads - how can any  community group work with an organisation that does this?
2. There has been a suggestion that CRT can only 'dispose of assets at their full value'. However the proposed use is fully inline with their charitably status, so this consideration simply does not apply. And in other cases CRT does collaborate with community groups. We are at a loss to explain why they are so intransigent with Marple apart from being desperate to make as much money as possible. Any ideas?

You are wasting your time .if you do manage to obtain the building you will strugle to make it pay its way .

[Blackfryers]

Sorry, didn't realise there was a reply...
1. The business plan has been formulated by a group of about ten people, led by Councillor Sue Ingham, and Marple Civic Society is heavily involved. It contains the sort of uses you would expect with cafe, heritage displays, community and exercise class meeting space. Many other similar facilities have been found to be viable in other parts of Britain, but obviously this depends on the purchase price. Because of the attitude of CRT in demanding full residential value for the warehouse we don't want to release figures as we think they will just try to rubbish them and use them to get their planning consent. We do still want to talk sensibly with them, but the planning application is a gun to our heads - how can any  community group work with an organisation that does this?
2. There has been a suggestion that CRT can only 'dispose of assets at their full value'. However the proposed use is fully inline with their charitably status, so this consideration simply does not apply. And in other cases CRT does collaborate with community groups. We are at a loss to explain why they are so intransigent with Marple apart from being desperate to make as much money as possible. Any ideas?

[admin]

Some great pictures of Marple Wharf sent over last night by David Burridge have been added to the Virtual History Tour today:

http://visitmarple.co.uk/photos/thumbnails.php?album=lastup&cat=0



It would be good to get that petition up to 1,000 signatures before it's presented to Marple AC, less than 100 to go:

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/save-marple-wharf

[amazon]

I’m glad to see the 500+ signatures already on the petition disagree with the shockingly negative attitude of many here.

Building some houses on that bit of wasteland, fine. But the wharf warehouse too? Isn’t that just a massive waste of a potential asset? If the Canal and River Trust were truly wanting to make a positive difference to Marple’s canals they’d use the funds from the new build houses to prop up the redevelopment of the warehouse into a heritage facility... the café of which could then bring in rolling funds, not a one-off sell off.

There are numerous case examples of them being involved with similar buildings around the country, why they have thrown in the towel here is beyond me, but I get a feeling they’ve smelt blood with the Marple property market values. Unfortunately, THEIR values shouldn’t be a race to cash in for short term gain.

Good on Marple Civic Society for (finally) being a bit louder about this. Perhaps having it almost blow up will focus everyone’s attention on it enough that Marple won’t let it be wasted after all. Projects like this don’t happen overnight, especially when the major party hardly seems cooperative (even just a quick scan of the planning documents gives this impression). It might be a struggle and it might take years, but saving this building from being closed off to the public for the rest of its existence with yet another bland residential conversion will be worth it.

If we can find thousands of pounds to build a skate park or save a single pub, surely we can come together to give Marple’s canals the centrepiece they need.

Sign the petition and add your comment to the planning application NOW.

The cafe would not bring in rolling funds no one  would use it to that extent .plenty of very good cafes in Marple .

[Dave]

Projects like this don’t happen overnight

Indeed. Or even in seven years, it seems.

[rsh]

I’m glad to see the 500+ signatures already on the petition disagree with the shockingly negative attitude of many here.

Building some houses on that bit of wasteland, fine. But the wharf warehouse too? Isn’t that just a massive waste of a potential asset? If the Canal and River Trust were truly wanting to make a positive difference to Marple’s canals they’d use the funds from the new build houses to prop up the redevelopment of the warehouse into a heritage facility... the café of which could then bring in rolling funds, not a one-off sell off.

There are numerous case examples of them being involved with similar buildings around the country, why they have thrown in the towel here is beyond me, but I get a feeling they’ve smelt blood with the Marple property market values. Unfortunately, THEIR values shouldn’t be a race to cash in for short term gain.

Good on Marple Civic Society for (finally) being a bit louder about this. Perhaps having it almost blow up will focus everyone’s attention on it enough that Marple won’t let it be wasted after all. Projects like this don’t happen overnight, especially when the major party hardly seems cooperative (even just a quick scan of the planning documents gives this impression). It might be a struggle and it might take years, but saving this building from being closed off to the public for the rest of its existence with yet another bland residential conversion will be worth it.

If we can find thousands of pounds to build a skate park or save a single pub, surely we can come together to give Marple’s canals the centrepiece they need.

Sign the petition and add your comment to the planning application NOW.

[amazon]

The CRT is a charity, and it is governed by the normal restrictions on what charities may and may not do. One thing they may not do is dispose of assets at less than their full value ('best consideration' in the jargon).  There are ways round that, but the consent of the Charity Commission has to be secured. This takes time and patience, and a lot of political pressure from MPs, local authorities etc. 

Blackfryers, you write
I've looked for this on the MCS website, but it's not there.  However, what I did find was a document called 'Vision for Marple', published in January 2010.  This ends as follows:

NEXT STEPS
Form a partnership of interested organisations, principally Stockport MBC, British Waterways and Marple Civic Society to set up a Regeneration Committee to design, promote and deliver a Vision for Marple. The committee would co-op [sic] interested parties as required and would seek Heritage Lottery Funds and other sources of finance to assist in regenerating Marple to make it the "Jewel in the Crown" of Stockport MBC.

That was over seven years ago.  Did it happen? Was there an HLF application? if so, why was it unsuccessful?

Will be interesting to see if you recieve a reply

[Dave]

The CRT is a charity, and it is governed by the normal restrictions on what charities may and may not do. One thing they may not do is dispose of assets at less than their full value ('best consideration' in the jargon).  There are ways round that, but the consent of the Charity Commission has to be secured. This takes time and patience, and a lot of political pressure from MPs, local authorities etc. 

Blackfryers, you write

The community has a viable use (café, heritage centre and community rooms) with a viable business plan

I've looked for this on the MCS website, but it's not there.  However, what I did find was a document called 'Vision for Marple', published in January 2010.  This ends as follows:

NEXT STEPS
Form a partnership of interested organisations, principally Stockport MBC, British Waterways and Marple Civic Society to set up a Regeneration Committee to design, promote and deliver a Vision for Marple. The committee would co-op [sic] interested parties as required and would seek Heritage Lottery Funds and other sources of finance to assist in regenerating Marple to make it the "Jewel in the Crown" of Stockport MBC.

That was over seven years ago.  Did it happen? Was there an HLF application? if so, why was it unsuccessful?

[Blackfryers]

The community has a viable use (café, heritage centre and community rooms) with a viable business plan, but Canals and Rivers Trust (CRT) have been intransigent and will not talk to us sensibly about a price (despite what they say). CRT are insisting that the community pay full residential rate for the warehouse (£0.25m for just the derelict shell). NO community plan could possibly be viable on this basis and CRT know it. The warehouse is an intrinsic part of the canal, and CRT should be looking for a partnership with the local community to run a joint facility, not trying to screw a quarter of a million pounds out of us. In fact, CRT really should be partners rather than seeking to off-load their canal heritage.

I also should clarify the Civic Society (MCS) objection. MCS is very keen to see the wharf developed for viable uses including housing, but this needs to be done in partnership with people in Marple, with a mixed development that retains community use, not by cramming as many houses as possible on a small site and telling the community to get lost. MCS is happy to see a good quality development including modern buildings and residential, but the development must be balanced, and enhance Marple. MCS even used planning/architecture students from Manchester University to develop alternative ideas, but designs were dismissed out of hand by  CRT. MCS still wants, even at this late stage to partner with CRT, but they are deaf. If anyone has any contacts at CRT where we could establish contact and discuss a partner hip, please let us know.