Tesco / ASDA !!!

[HWL1973]

i think the point thats been made hollins is that the big supermarket chains really dont give a toss about their neighbours or local people.  The coop regardless of their high prices are historically a community organisation and still remain so.  Just maybe that is why there is less impact from the coop? 

Can someone please supply evidence of the co-op in Marple engaging in community activities and events?

[Dave]

Yes, a thoughtful and interesting post, exmarpleite.  Can we just pick up (and clear out of the way) this bit about the college's overall financial position. 

now "sources" who the MIA seem to have many of  ,claim the college is in an even more parlous state than previously thought....

The origin of this is presumably an incorrect statement on the MIA website (repeated in the locked 'Latest News' thread on this forum).  It reads 'Lawrence Grant, Chair of the Governors admits that they are failing to manage the finances of the College and require a quick fix in the form of a £12 million sale of the Hibbert Lane site.' 

The reality is very different. The college is not in a 'parlous state' at all.   On the contrary, its financial position is currently graded by inspectors as 'outstanding'.  This is backed up by the most recently available summary of their annual report and accounts, which show a healthy financial position:   http://www.camsfc.ac.uk/assets/file/Annual_reports/Annual_Rep_08_09_lr.pdf.   

The only statement made by the Chair of Governors, AFAIK, has been this: http://www.camsfc.ac.uk/cmsfc-about.asp?AboID=90.  As you see, it makes no mention of the college's overall financial position at all, and certainly there is no 'admission' that the governors have failed to manage it.     

MIA have some legitimate arguments to make against the college's plans, but they do not help themselves by publishing such an inaccurate allegation.  The college wishes to sell its Hibbert Lane site in order to re-invest the proceeds in Buxton Lane.  It is clearly not selling land for a 'quick fix' - indeed, like any public body, they would not be permitted to dispose of assets and use the proceeds towards running costs, which is what MIA seem to be suggesting.   

[JMC]

can i ask supporters of the MIA position to explain what their plan B is please ,if i have read recent postings and understood them (no foregone conclusion) they appear to be saying the following:-
most of them seem to accept there is a need for another supermarket to compete with the coop on price and choice especially for those unable to get out of town to shop.
they do not seem to agree what size such a store should be to compete fairly with the coop ,people say anything from a corner store to something like a full blown superstore ,i think probably everyone would agree logically it has to be as big as the coop to compete
MIA supporters do not think the college site on hibbert lane is an appropriate location for a superstore for numerous reasons
MIA supporters claim numerous sites around the centre could be suitable for the superstore ,NONE suggested so far are remotely suitable ,primarily because they are too small ,there is only one site suitable physically that is the rec and i should imagine building on there would outrage MIA supporters even more than on Hibbert Lane
now "sources" who the MIA seem to have many of  ,claim the college is in an even more parlous state than previously thought and rather than the sale of hibbert lane being an option it could actually be their only hope of survival in marple
if the figures to redevelop buxton lane being bandied about are even half right the sale of hibbert lane for retail use is the only thing that will generate any where enough money to pay for it ,residential use which is the obvious use for thesite will probably pay 50% of retail use ,if that in the current market
so where does that leave marple if the no camp win
1 no  competition for the so called ethical coop who are abusing their monopoly to rip of people
2 potentially the college closing in marple
3 residential redevelopment on the hibbert lane and buxton lane campuses
come on MIA can you not start to put forward some positive ideas for a change instead of all the doom and gloom which just seems to justify what your opponents are saying ,for instance what about thinking the unthinkable and supping with the enemy ie the college
marple needs the college ,the college needs a shed load of money to stay in the town ,marple itself should also benefit and share in the proceeds of any sale they should not just go to the college ,such monies could be used to help improve the centre and bolster it against any effects of a superstore

Exmarpleite, that is an excellent post. I am too interested in answers to these questions.

[exmarpleite]

can i ask supporters of the MIA position to explain what their plan B is please ,if i have read recent postings and understood them (no foregone conclusion) they appear to be saying the following:-
most of them seem to accept there is a need for another supermarket to compete with the coop on price and choice especially for those unable to get out of town to shop.
they do not seem to agree what size such a store should be to compete fairly with the coop ,people say anything from a corner store to something like a full blown superstore ,i think probably everyone would agree logically it has to be as big as the coop to compete
MIA supporters do not think the college site on hibbert lane is an appropriate location for a superstore for numerous reasons
MIA supporters claim numerous sites around the centre could be suitable for the superstore ,NONE suggested so far are remotely suitable ,primarily because they are too small ,there is only one site suitable physically that is the rec and i should imagine building on there would outrage MIA supporters even more than on Hibbert Lane
now "sources" who the MIA seem to have many of  ,claim the college is in an even more parlous state than previously thought and rather than the sale of hibbert lane being an option it could actually be their only hope of survival in marple
if the figures to redevelop buxton lane being bandied about are even half right the sale of hibbert lane for retail use is the only thing that will generate any where enough money to pay for it ,residential use which is the obvious use for thesite will probably pay 50% of retail use ,if that in the current market
so where does that leave marple if the no camp win
1 no  competition for the so called ethical coop who are abusing their monopoly to rip of people
2 potentially the college closing in marple
3 residential redevelopment on the hibbert lane and buxton lane campuses
come on MIA can you not start to put forward some positive ideas for a change instead of all the doom and gloom which just seems to justify what your opponents are saying ,for instance what about thinking the unthinkable and supping with the enemy ie the college
marple needs the college ,the college needs a shed load of money to stay in the town ,marple itself should also benefit and share in the proceeds of any sale they should not just go to the college ,such monies could be used to help improve the centre and bolster it against any effects of a superstore

[Lisa Oldham]

i think the point thats been made hollins is that the big supermarket chains really dont give a toss about their neighbours or local people.  The coop regardless of their high prices are historically a community organisation and still remain so.  Just maybe that is why there is less impact from the coop? 

[hollins]

Hi Marpleexile we do know for a fact that they can build on nearly 5. Something  acres now then after 10 years build on the remaining 3.something acres.  So we could see the development grow and grow.  Once the land has been sold the owners can do basically what they want.  The site is as big as the Portwood Site, I have a friend who lives five streets away from a  smaller site than HIbbert Lane  and the noise at night is dreadful she is always contacting the council about noise levels but the supermarket is a law unto itself.  There are car alarms going off, trucks unloading, car doors slamming , noise from the freezers, beep beep noise constantly when the delivery lorries are backing up, lights so bright that her bedroom is lit up at night and an increased crime rate due to gangs of youths hanging around not to mention her road being used as a rat run at all hours of the night. 

This is pure scaremongering. "Five Streets"! If you lived more than one row of houses away from the Co-op supermarket in Marple you would be barely aware of its existence. You don't hear a peep out of them after they have closed at night. And just how many large-lorry deliveries do you think that the Co-op has per day? Why don't you actually go and count them: you really don't need many fingers to do so. "Lights so bright that her bedroom is lit up at night"? Go and look at the Co-op lights. They are directed downward, are just sufficient to maintain security and are no more obtrusive than ordinary streetlights.

On a different subthread people are also making a meal out of ASDA's access problems in Hazel Grove. At least ASDA are doing something about it. The residents on their temporary and soon-to-be-redundant access route have more to worry about than supermarket lorries: there is no way a fire engine could get down their road. (This also applies to several streets in Marple.) If the Co-op's lorries can get down Hollins Lane then supermarket lorries should have no difficulty at all negotiating Hibbert Lane.

Finally, thanks to the person who posted the "Yes" campaign's more coherently worded mission statement in this forum. As you see they are not advocating a hypermarket-sized development in Marple. As they state: it would not be logical and they wouldn't support it.

[Maria]

Hi Marpleexile we do know for a fact that they can build on nearly 5. Something  acres now then after 10 years build on the remaining 3.something acres.  So we could see the development grow and grow.  Once the land has been sold the owners can do basically what they want.  The site is as big as the Portwood Site, I have a friend who lives five streets away from a  smaller site than HIbbert Lane  and the noise at night is dreadful she is always contacting the council about noise levels but the supermarket is a law unto itself.  There are car alarms going off, trucks unloading, car doors slamming , noise from the freezers, beep beep noise constantly when the delivery lorries are backing up, lights so bright that her bedroom is lit up at night and an increased crime rate due to gangs of youths hanging around not to mention her road being used as a rat run at all hours of the night. 

That's my point exactly. Lets get everyone up in arms about even a small supermarket, then if it turns out the plans are for a larger one, then everyone will still be against it.

I'm just afraid that if everyone thinks Asda/Tesco are planning a portwood sized monster, they'll actually be pleased if they apply to build something more modest, and might be left with the impression that Asda/Tesco backed down and we "won" by making them compromise.

Having read your post I do agree with your point-we need to maintain our original view that a supermarket on Hibbert lane is not appropriate for the area.  I sincerely agree one in the town centre is.

[Dave]

What I can understand is, the land was gifted to Marple  people however many years ago  for the  education of local children. Then the  government in 1993/1995 gave lands to all colleges so that they could have more control over it for the education of children, now so far that seems ok.  What I don't understand is how that land can now be sold to a supermarket, if it was only given in this case to CAMSFC for education, sounds a bit fishy to me, don't you agree, because if all private colleges were allowed to do this where would that leave our children.  

I seem to recall Paul Lawrence (SMBC Planning Supremo) dealing with this issue at the 'party in the park'?  As you know, the covenants on the Hibbert Lane campus are set out in this FOI response:  http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/covenants_relating_to_the_colleg

The ones listed 1 - 5 date from 1925, and obviously present no obstacles regarding the sale of the site to a supermarket, or anyone else for that matter.

The conditions that you are referring to, I think, are listed at the end:

There are also rights in favour of the Local Authority to
1- use parts of the Hibbert Lane site for purposes of providing adult education
2- use the leisure centre situated within the Hibbert Lane Site
3- use the Youth Club situated within the Hibbert lane Site

My understanding from what Paul Lawrence said is that if the college were to maintain the council's rights nearby (i.e. at the Buxton Lane site), that would be sufficient to satisfy the conditions.   But I'm not a lawyer, and maybe MIA should take its own legal advice on the matter.   

[marpleexile]

Hi Marpleexile we do know for a fact that they can build on nearly 5. Something  acres now then after 10 years build on the remaining 3.something acres.  So we could see the development grow and grow.  Once the land has been sold the owners can do basically what they want.  The site is as big as the Portwood Site, I have a friend who lives five streets away from a  smaller site than HIbbert Lane  and the noise at night is dreadful she is always contacting the council about noise levels but the supermarket is a law unto itself.  There are car alarms going off, trucks unloading, car doors slamming , noise from the freezers, beep beep noise constantly when the delivery lorries are backing up, lights so bright that her bedroom is lit up at night and an increased crime rate due to gangs of youths hanging around not to mention her road being used as a rat run at all hours of the night. 

That's my point exactly. Lets get everyone up in arms about even a small supermarket, then if it turns out the plans are for a larger one, then everyone will still be against it.

I'm just afraid that if everyone thinks Asda/Tesco are planning a portwood sized monster, they'll actually be pleased if they apply to build something more modest, and might be left with the impression that Asda/Tesco backed down and we "won" by making them compromise.

[mum_of_2]

What I can understand is, the land was gifted to Marple  people however many years ago  for the  education of local children. Then the  government in 1993/1995 gave lands to all colleges so that they could have more control over it for the education of children, now so far that seems ok.  What I don't understand is how that land can now be sold to a supermarket, if it was only given in this case to CAMSFC for education, sounds a bit fishy to me, don't you agree, because if all private colleges were allowed to do this where would that leave our children.  

Does this help?
If i have got it right the college holds the deed so therefore can sell to whoever they wish

i have just read the top of the page and realised you made the enquiery (i think)

[mum_of_2]

What I can understand is, the land was gifted to Marple  people however many years ago  for the  education of local children. Then the  government in 1993/1995 gave lands to all colleges so that they could have more control over it for the education of children, now so far that seems ok.  What I don't understand is how that land can now be sold to a supermarket, if it was only given in this case to CAMSFC for education, sounds a bit fishy to me, don't you agree, because if all private colleges were allowed to do this where would that leave our children.  

Does this help?
If i have got it right the college holds the deed so therefore can sell to whoever they wish

[Miss Marple]

What I can understand is, the land was gifted to Marple  people however many years ago  for the  education of local children. Then the  government in 1993/1995 gave lands to all colleges so that they could have more control over it for the education of children, now so far that seems ok.  What I don't understand is how that land can now be sold to a supermarket, if it was only given in this case to CAMSFC for education, sounds a bit fishy to me, don't you agree, because if all private colleges were allowed to do this where would that leave our children.  

[Miss Marple]

Dave , Ms Cassidy told me they needed 12 million , but what we don't know is how much the supermarkets are offering ! It could be considerably more , if there becomes a bidding war ?   So can you see the differing scenarios and how this is proving very difficult to assess.  Another little snippet Mr Grant (  Chair of governors ) is standing down.  The last conversation I had with Mr Grant was that when  he gave the now famous statement as published on CAMSFC web site and in the Stockport Express was "that at that time he believed that to be the truth".   I have a feeling that things have moved on since he made that statement and his decision to stand down to me says more than words.

[Osdog]

I've no idea how big that is.  But thank you for the information, it's much appreciated.  Maybe I'll go and look.

[Victor M]

That's the area that can be built on including any additional car park and service roads. The service roads will depend on how good their architect is.
Another example that has been given us by the councils' planning dept. is a similar size development to the Morrison's at Edgeley.
Hope this helps.