Marple - Manchester tram-train case study

[Stockport Classic Bus]

Not that they are not densely populated, but the train line doesn't cut through the main centres of that density in the way that the new Oldham tram line does. And there is not a significant demand on Manchester travel for areas such as Brinnington in the same way as there is for Marple. Reddish and Ryder Brow already have a very dense bus network which can get people into Manchester quite quickly and - important point I think! - more cheaply than a tram. Tram fares are steep!! Marple of itself doesn't gain anything from Metrolink-style carriages. It's the route in between which is important as others have said. And the Bredbury or Hyde North lines wouldn't generate much extra footfall simply by running trams on them.

[Dave]

Worth noting that the demographics for Oldham, and the tram route into Manchester from there, are quite different from the Marple line. It's a densely populated line through Limeside, Hollinwood and Failsworth into Manchester, so it can justify much more frequent trams.

You mean Bredbury, Brinnington, Reddish, and Ryder Brow aren't densely populated?  I must have been imagining all those houses, obviously! 

rsh  dealt with this issue very well, a few months ago: 

But you need to think about the line as less solely focused on serving Marple. Marple may not be crying out for trams, in your opinion, but stations such as Reddish North, Ryder Brow, Belle Vue, and so on are all massively underused because the service terminating at Piccadilly makes it worthless. Converting it to a tram-style service and running across the city centre, especially to somewhere like Salford Quays, would immediately bring a massive increase in custom from these stations. It's not all about us.

[Stockport Classic Bus]

Worth noting that the demographics for Oldham, and the tram route into Manchester from there, are quite different from the Marple line. It's a densely populated line through Limeside, Hollinwood and Failsworth into Manchester, so it can justify much more frequent trams. The fact they have more trams than they did trains at the start doesn't mean it'll stay that way. The trains were hopeless and pretty empty on the Oldham loop and Oldham is a relatively poor and car-light town compared with Marple. I spent many years living in Oldham as a younger guy before eventually ending up in Marple!

[rsh]

A little nugget in here, within an otherwise rather vague Manchester "masterplan" for the next 15 years... http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1581573_masterplan-to-take-manchester-into-the-future

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Transport

An efficient and sustainable public transport system is seen as key to driving the city's economy and connecting people to jobs. Every job would be accessible by public transport, foot or bike, under the blueprint.

It commits to pushing forward with the expansion of the Metrolink to Trafford Park, Stockport and Marple – as well as introducing a cross-city bus package.

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Metrolink just opened to Oldham using the old rail line and extensions are currently under construction to Rochdale, Didsbury and the Airport/Wythenshawe. The Trafford Centre line is unfunded but will probably come soon after. It looks like Marple and Stockport will then finally be at the top of the list.

About the tram-train plan in particular (linking Marple into the Metrolink using special trams that are also allowed to run alongside Sheffield trains on our heavy rail lines), I believe Transport for Greater Manchester will be publishing some kind of draft document later this year about their intentions.

For anyone wondering about trams vs trains, this article from Oldham is good for some examples. Oldham now has 76 tram services to Victoria on a Sunday (a tram every 15 minutes!), versus just 13 trains when it was a rail line. Also a consistent 15 minute service into each evening and a last tram home at 12.36am on Fridays and Saturdays.

Marple currently has 11 trains to Piccadilly on a Sunday from May to September and just 7 trains for the rest of the year.

[Dave]

the obvious and cheap solution. 

Cheap?  All solutions are cheap if you're a fare dodger!   

[Duke Fame]

I think part of this is down to the lack of platforms at Manchester Piccadilly station and the over capacity line/junctions going into Piccadilly station.   There has been talk about building 1 or 2 new platforms for the Marple trains, so as to fee up other platforms.  The benefit from rail/tram may be as match to over rail services then to the Marple service it’s self.

This is exactly why I suggest local trains terminate & meet a tram interchange around the Ardwick area to relieve Picadilly. Alternatively the national trains could terminate at such an interchane with a shuttle to Picadilly, it seems the obvious and cheap solution. 

[ringi]

I think part of this is down to the lack of platforms at Manchester Piccadilly station and the over capacity line/junctions going into Piccadilly station.   There has been talk about building 1 or 2 new platforms for the Marple trains, so as to fee up other platforms.  The benefit from rail/tram may be as match to over rail services then to the Marple service it’s self.

[Belly]

I don’t see the value of a link to Stockport, after all Manchester has better shops and more jobs.

What Marple railways really need is the relatively small investment to deliver the 'Brinnington Curve' to link the Bredbury Line to the Stockport - Stalybridge line. Delivery of this link (across unbuilt on fields just to the north of Reddish Vale) would give the town a direct rail link to Stockport - whilst not the most direct route, it would certainly be preferebale to a bus of car journey. 

But where are all those people queued from nose to tail on Stockport Rd and through offerton going? Stockport also provides great links to other rail services without the need to go to Manchester. And the buses to Stockport are a joke as they are stuck in the same traffic as the cars. Plenty of Marple / Romiley / Bredbury people work 'local' I suspect.

I do take your point though. I live here because I moved here 10 years ago to allow me to commute in on the train to Manchester.

[Heritage]

I'd imagine that a fastish [Marple-Romiley-Bredbury-Stockport] train service would be extremely busy. Need only be a peak-time commuter service. Now what were you saying, Dr Beeching.....? 

[ringi]

I don’t see the value of a link to Stockport, after all Manchester has better shops and more jobs.

What Marple railways really need is the relatively small investment to deliver the 'Brinnington Curve' to link the Bredbury Line to the Stockport - Stalybridge line. Delivery of this link (across unbuilt on fields just to the north of Reddish Vale) would give the town a direct rail link to Stockport - whilst not the most direct route, it would certainly be preferebale to a bus of car journey. 

[Dave]

Apparantly I can use my rail ticket so apparently I didn't jump the fare. Also, I've only been on the tram twice to go to Old Toilet

Sorry Duke - the free tram travel only applies to the city centre.  If you go to Old Trafford you have to pay.  But what amazes me is the lack of remorse.  Normally I would expect a fare dodger to keep quiet about it, but you actually bragged about it on this forum!

And in case you ever encounter an inspector, be warned that if you offer an excuse, it will need to be a lot better than these 

i really didn't know where to buy a ticket..... i was in a rush.

[Duke Fame]

Jumping train fares is against the law, simple as that. Same principle applies to supporting local shops I guess? Okay to not pay for the fruit and veg because someone else will pay for theirs? That's how prices go up....and...hey presto! End of local shop. And that's without the criminal record....

Apparantly I can use my rail ticket so apparently I didn't jump the fare. Also, I've only been on the tram twice to go to Old Toilet,  once was for the football & i really didn't know where to buy a ticket. The 2nd was for a concert and i was in a rush.

[rsh]

Good point, When I've used the tram, I've been stunned by the price - basically i've jumped the fare every time.

You know that you're allowed to use the tram free in the centre with a train ticket anyway?

No cheap evening returns or railcard discounts would be a downside, but Metrolink fares aren't that much higher than rail. I presume Marple would be in the same price bracket as Altrincham (the maximum), so at current prices that'd be £6 peak return (currently £5.90 by rail from Marple) and £4.30 off-peak return (£3.60 from Marple). A strange quirk, though, is that this is also the maximum price for a Day Saver ticket, so we'd pay 10p/70p more but get the run of the whole tram network. Currently having to add tram onto train you pay considerably more - £6.90 for an off-peak combined train & tram ticket! As the trams go to more places, it'd be much better for Marple to be part of the same tickets than stuck on the outside.

[Heritage]

Jumping train fares is against the law, simple as that. Same principle applies to supporting local shops I guess? Okay to not pay for the fruit and veg because someone else will pay for theirs? That's how prices go up....and...hey presto! End of local shop. And that's without the criminal record....

[Dave]

where's the problem with my brilliant plan?

Well it's hard to know where to start, Duke.  But let's just say that if the trains from Manchester to Leeds and Sheffield started at Stalybridge and Marple respectively, hardly anyone would use them and the services would soon disappear.  Btw, there is already a 15 minute service between Manchester and Leeds. 

As for this

When I've used the tram, I've been stunned by the price - basically i've jumped the fare every time.

... if it's a joke, ho ho.  If it's a confession, you should be ashamed of yourself.