Marple - Manchester tram-train case study

[Duke Fame]

'When I've used the tram, I've been stunned by the price - basically i've jumped the fare every time' 

Well done, very public spirited.  Good job we don't all think like that!!  And watch out - the inspectors were on the last two trams I have used.

I'm not public spirited at all, the public have plenty of my money, I'm not giving away more than I need to.

[Barbara]

'When I've used the tram, I've been stunned by the price - basically i've jumped the fare every time' 

Well done, very public spirited.  Good job we don't all think like that!!  And watch out - the inspectors were on the last two trams I have used.

[Duke Fame]

A lot of very good sense there from rsh. But we should be grateful that Duke isn't reponsible for planning public transport - stick to riding the bike, Dukey ;-)

Cheeky, so where's the problem with my brilliant plan?

[Duke Fame]

"....adoption of Metrolink fares and ticketing..."

That's a significant change for Marple.....the days of the cheapie evening return into town will be gone!!

Good point, When I've used the tram, I've been stunned by the price - basically i've jumped the fare every time.

[Heritage]

"....adoption of Metrolink fares and ticketing..."

That's a significant change for Marple.....the days of the cheapie evening return into town will be gone!!

[Dave]

A lot of very good sense there from rsh. But we should be grateful that Duke isn't reponsible for planning public transport - stick to riding the bike, Dukey ;-)

[Duke Fame]

A little more lateral thinking is required here. Does Marple need a tram service to Manchester via Bredbury or Guide Bridge?  The answer to this is no.

But you need to think about the line as less solely focused on serving Marple. Marple may not be crying out for trams, in your opinion, but stations such as Reddish North, Ryder Brow, Belle Vue, and so on are all massively underused because the service terminating at Piccadilly makes it worthless. Converting it to a tram-style service and running across the city centre, especially to somewhere like Salford Quays, would immediately bring a massive increase in custom from these stations. It's not all about us.

The report suggests that the majority of the 60% boost in passengers would come from these under-served inner city areas, as people are drawn by the frequency of the tram and the fact that it actually goes right through the city. For Marple, this would give the trickle-down effect that increased patronage from the inner-city areas means being able to justify a better, higher frequency service all the way along the line to cope with the new demand. We all benefit.

I agree the Stockport problem would be far better to solve, but perhaps we should see tram-train conversion of the existing line as the precursor to that. Stockport MBC appear to be (very slowly) progressing the case for a line from Stockport Bus Station, through Portwood and across to Bredbury, roughly following the old Tiviot Dale line/current M60. It'd be a rather expensive build, but having this ready-and-waiting converted tram-train line from Bredbury to Marple for it to connect onto could just move things along. I doubt otherwise a tram to Stockport would ever come before a tram-train to Manchester.

As it stands, the line to Manchester has to take priority because it's currently operated by life-expired diesel rolling stock that, as well as being clapped out, is going to be falling foul of new disability regulations come 2019. They could order new diesel units (not going to happen), or wait until better spare units become available from electrification projects elsewhere, or they could just go ahead and finally convert our line to tram operation - increasing income, removing the subsidy and ultimately saving taxpayers' money through a little investment.

I sort of accept the idea that a tram running on the train line is a solution. The cheapest solution surely must be to put a tram link, BR terminus and huge multi storey car park between Ashburys & Ardwick, that takes out all local traffic from Picadily and links the likes of Stockport, to the tram sytem. The only new lines need to be laid parallel to Gt ancoats to link in to the bus & car park at Suedehill. That means we'd have trams running Marple to Ardwick to Victoria and Stockport to Ardiwick to Victoria, similarly from Glossop , Guide bridge and StalyBridge. In fact Our Sheffield line can start at Marple, Main Sheffield line start at Stockport and Leeds line start at Stalybridge. The latter could then up it's frequency to every 15 mins which is very much needed.

[rsh]

A little more lateral thinking is required here. Does Marple need a tram service to Manchester via Bredbury or Guide Bridge?  The answer to this is no.

But you need to think about the line as less solely focused on serving Marple. Marple may not be crying out for trams, in your opinion, but stations such as Reddish North, Ryder Brow, Belle Vue, and so on are all massively underused because the service terminating at Piccadilly makes it worthless. Converting it to a tram-style service and running across the city centre, especially to somewhere like Salford Quays, would immediately bring a massive increase in custom from these stations. It's not all about us.

The report suggests that the majority of the 60% boost in passengers would come from these under-served inner city areas, as people are drawn by the frequency of the tram and the fact that it actually goes right through the city. For Marple, this would give the trickle-down effect that increased patronage from the inner-city areas means being able to justify a better, higher frequency service all the way along the line to cope with the new demand. We all benefit.

I agree the Stockport problem would be far better to solve, but perhaps we should see tram-train conversion of the existing line as the precursor to that. Stockport MBC appear to be (very slowly) progressing the case for a line from Stockport Bus Station, through Portwood and across to Bredbury, roughly following the old Tiviot Dale line/current M60. It'd be a rather expensive build, but having this ready-and-waiting converted tram-train line from Bredbury to Marple for it to connect onto could just move things along. I doubt otherwise a tram to Stockport would ever come before a tram-train to Manchester.

As it stands, the line to Manchester has to take priority because it's currently operated by life-expired diesel rolling stock that, as well as being clapped out, is going to be falling foul of new disability regulations come 2019. They could order new diesel units (not going to happen), or wait until better spare units become available from electrification projects elsewhere, or they could just go ahead and finally convert our line to tram operation - increasing income, removing the subsidy and ultimately saving taxpayers' money through a little investment.

[Duke Fame]

We'll all chip in and buy Duke Fame a Penny Farthing, then he can cycle round in his own little Victoriana while the rest of us take advantage of the investment and improvements that are always necessary to any infrastructure.

You know, a bit of private investment would be great. There seems to be a fewgood ideas which will pay for themselves. Why not set up a company to take over the franchise and create a private tram way. No need to pander to unions, overblown quangos like GMPTA and we can all be incentivised to make sure it works well.

 

[Steptoe and Son]

We'll all chip in and buy Duke Fame a Penny Farthing, then he can cycle round in his own little Victoriana while the rest of us take advantage of the investment and improvements that are always necessary to any infrastructure.

[Duke Fame]

Dave, this is a Mysty eyed world where we can go all the way from Marple to Bury, I mean, that's what dreams are made of.

But can't we do that already? We get a train to manky & then travel to lots of spots, why waste money on something we already have?

[Belly]

Future extension of the Hazel Grove bypass to Bredbury at a future date will incorporate a junction with the A626 making the road journey to Stockport even worse.

Not strictly true I think. My understanding was that the Hazel Grove bypass would go under the A626 - with the two roads joined together by a short link road with 'at-grade' junctions on each route.

What Marple railways really need is the relatively small investment to deliver the 'Brinnington Curve' to link the Bredbury Line to the Stockport - Stalybridge line. Delivery of this link (across unbuilt on fields just to the north of Reddish Vale) would give the town a direct rail link to Stockport - whilst not the most direct route, it would certainly be preferebale to a bus of car journey. 

[Dave]

Some very interesting ideas there, re connecting Marple with Stockport by tram, but that doesn't mean the Marple - Manchester proposals set out here aren't good too - they are!  Marplerambler writes: 

the only obvious change for the passenger would be a change in rolling stock, yellow trams designed with few seats primarily to carry as many standing passengers as possible 

......but there are more benefits than that.  The improved frequency is an obvious one, but a major factor will also be the prospect of being able to take a direct tram from, say, Marple and travel straight through to a city centre tram stop - say St Peter's Square, for example.  Also to step off a tram at Piccadilly Gardens and then step on to one to Bury or Altrincham.  And if it really does turn out to be self-financing, with no subsidy required, then it's a no-brainer! 

[marplerambler]

A little more lateral thinking is required here. Does Marple need a tram service to Manchester via Bredbury or Guide Bridge?  The answer to this is no. The railway infrastructure is already there, electrification may be beneficial in the long term but the only obvious change for the passenger would be a change in rolling stock, yellow trams designed with few seats primarily to carry as many standing passengers as possible are the alternative to existing blue trains with more seats but little leg space and a large number of standing passengers. The peak period service recently has been improved by the addition of extra carriages. Marple’s main transport problem is not Manchester trains, it is the link to Stockport: a rush hour bus (and car) journey from Marple or Rose Hill to Stockport takes longer than the train journey to Manchester and this is the problem which needs to be addressed: this is a problem which could be solved by a tram. If money is going to be spent, invest in a Marple-Stockport tram. Possible options include a tram from Rose Hill/Marple along the existing line to the Reddish Vale viaduct then a tram link onto the old Stalybridge to Stockport railway line. Another option could be tram down the road from Marple centre to Rose Hill with a tram track on the Middlewood Way via High Lane and a loop onto the Buxton – Stockport line at Middlewood. Trams by their very nature can use road and rail. Why not use the railway track as far as the M60 and construct a tram link onto Lingard Lane/Brinnington Rd, use Brinnington Road from the M60 bridge as far as the Jack and Jill and then use the old railway track to the old Stockport Tiviot Dale station? Future extension of the Hazel Grove bypass to Bredbury at a future date will incorporate a junction with the A626 making the road journey to Stockport even worse. A tram scheme to Stockport would be much more valuable to Marple.

[rsh]

Right on cue, the first version of this report is now available. Details of the Marple tram-train proposal start from page 69 (page 72 of the PDF): http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/imagelibrary/downloadMedia.ashx?MediaDetailsID=5468

In summary, Transport for Greater Manchester are suggesting an electrified service from Marple connecting onto the Metrolink network just before Piccadilly and then (I'm surprised at this) running on to Eccles as an extension of that existing line (which goes via Salford Quays). Tram-trains would be brand new rolling stock running every 12 minutes via the Bredbury route, which would be entirely given over to this service. A new bay platform would be built at Marple for terminating services, I presume in the undergrowth behind Platform 1, where one used to exist.

They suggest passenger numbers on the line would rise by as much as 60%, and that the current subsidy on the route would no longer be needed with revenue helping to pay off the cost of the new rolling stock and infrastructure.

Stopping services to Sheffield would still call at Marple and Romiley but would then be diverted via Hyde Central and Guide Bridge. Again surprisingly, this specific example doesn't give any suggestion of converting Rose Hill, which I'd have thought would be the more obvious test bed, stating that its service to Piccadilly would remain, with all trains via Hyde. There's also no mention (unless I missed it) of what happens for New Mills, which currently has two trains per hour.

So although this case study finally gives a good bit of detail to the seemingly eternal proposal of converting the line, it might not ring entirely true to how it'll eventually happen... if it ever does. I don't know if TfGM, Network Rail, the council or our councillors want us to "get behind" a proposal like this, but I'm sure if just the first highlighted sentence below were suggested to any user of the service, it'd be met with an immediate: Yes please!

Concept

Connection of an existing tram system to the existing heavy rail network, for example the tram train pilot between Rotherham and Sheffield to provide connectivity with city centres and their suburbs to create new journey opportunities, tap new markets, opportunities for new stations. This option is illustrated with reference to modeling conducted by Transport for Greater Manchester (TfGM) of the proposed conversion of the Marple line in Manchester to tram train. The Manchester – Marple route is one of a number of potential tram train schemes in Greater Manchester and the relevant local planning authorities will need to consider the route along with other tram train possibilities in an appropriate strategic context.

The TfGM modelled proposal is a tram train extension of the Metrolink Eccles to Manchester Piccadilly services to run through to Marple, at a 12 minute headway, with:

• all tram train services calling at all stations

• the existing rail services modified as follows:

• all Manchester Piccadilly– Marple / New Mills via Bredbury services are withdrawn
• existing local services from Manchester Piccadilly – Marple Rose Hill via Guide Bridge service are retained
• existing local services from Manchester Piccadilly to Chinley and the Hope Valley (one train per hour) serving Ashburys and Maple are diverted to call at Guide Bridge and Hyde Central, continuing to Romiley, Marple, Strines, New Mills etc.

Infrastructure

Specific Marple line infrastructure and rolling stock includes:

• tram train rolling stock
• connection to the Metrolink line
• electrification of Ashburys to Marple rail line for through running and track sharing by Metrolink services
• new bay platform at Marple for terminating Metrolink services

Impact

The Marple line tram train proposals are expected to deliver the following changes:

• improved journey times and network connectivity, with the creation of direct journey opportunities from stations on the Marple line to the city centre and beyond, linking into the existing Metrolink network
• extension of programmed Metrolink services running through the city centre to Manchester Piccadilly through to Marple, offering services every 12 minutes thereby delivering a net increase in trains on the route, especially at inner suburban stations. Tram train services would replace some existing heavy rail services, whilst other existing services would be modified
• a more balanced pattern of demand by time of day through attracting a less work dominated range of trip purposes, in large part due to providing a much more attractive service from the inner urban area, which has a much higher trip rate to Manchester city centre for non-work purposes than the outer part of the route
• Adoption of Metrolink fares and ticketing on tram train services.

Loads more general details in the PDF at the link above.

Hope this is interesting to someone!