Marple - Manchester tram-train case study

[Dave]

Dave,

Re your reaction to the possibility of a Rose Hill Terminus

This is madness!   If Rose Hill were to become the terminus of a tram-train service into Manchester every 12 minutes, it would generate a huge amount of additional traffic at the west end of Marple on and around Stockport Road, just where traffic congestion is already a log-jam at peak times.  And the commuters who park at Marple Station, where there is ample parking, would switch to Rose Hill.  And where would they all park?   It's crazy!

Can I refer you to your dismissal of the concerns of residents who flagged up very similar potential traffic problems linked to Asda proposal...

1.   A 'massive increase' in traffic?    Most of the traffic to Asda is already on the roads, heading for other shops and supermarkets.   Asda will not magically create new shoppers.   Obviously there will be more traffic in and around Hibbert Lane, but this will be offset by less traffic elsewhere.

There no real difference is there?...unless the potential Rose Hill Terminus is closer to your house

There is a huge difference!  One the one hand we have Stockport Road, the main artery in and out of Marple and a notorious traffic congestion black spot.  On the other, we have Hibbert Lane, which leads to nowhere except Hawk Green and High Lane, and has far less traffic.    Adding more traffic to Hibbert lane would not, IMO, have created undue congestion.  Adding even more traffic to Stockport Road, on the other hand, would be a complete disaster.  As it is, traffic from Dan Bank is already backed up as far as the Texaco garage in the  mornings.  What would it be like if everyone commuting by car to Marple Station switched to Rose Hill instead (if they could find a parking space)?   Not just the 200 + who park at Marple, but also all the people who are dropped off (I believe that is known in transport circles as 'kiss and ride', which is rather nice!)   It doesn't bear thinking about! 

[bluebelly]

you can have as many trams as poss between marple / rose hill , when they come to the junctions at ashburys and hyde that is where the problems will be. new inferstructure will have to be built. the station i work at has just been rebuilt. the time it took was unbeliverble.this idea for the trams coming to marple has been around for ten years now.its a political policy thats bounded around by all parties. it would be nice if one commited to it,stuck by it and built it.

[Steptoe and Son]

Dave,

Re your reaction to the possibility of a Rose Hill Terminus

This is madness!   If Rose Hill were to become the terminus of a tram-train service into Manchester every 12 minutes, it would generate a huge amount of additional traffic at the west end of Marple on and around Stockport Road, just where traffic congestion is already a log-jam at peak times.  And the commuters who park at Marple Station, where there is ample parking, would switch to Rose Hill.  And where would they all park?   It's crazy!

Can I refer you to your dismissal of the concerns of residents who flagged up very similar potential traffic problems linked to Asda proposal...

1.   A 'massive increase' in traffic?    Most of the traffic to Asda is already on the roads, heading for other shops and supermarkets.   Asda will not magically create new shoppers.   Obviously there will be more traffic in and around Hibbert Lane, but this will be offset by less traffic elsewhere.

There no real difference is there?...unless the potential Rose Hill Terminus is closer to your house

[amazon]

What about a bus (maybe free) that links Rose Hill station with the centre of Marple etc?
Or if the parking charge more than the bus fare.

A  bus running every 10 minutes should be good enough.

More congestion . There's a fifteen minute service now . Why complicate the matter .

[Dave]

Just using Rose Hill would certainly be simpler from an operational point of view, and a good way to start off with a 12 minute service on the line. But I agree long term it would create too much disparity between the stations, especially if Marple not only continued at just a half hour frequency but all its trains had to presumably go right round via Hyde.

I thought the whole point of tram-trains was that they can share track, as the name implies.  If they are going to be separated, as ringi suggests, then why not simply use the existing trams?

[ringi]

What about a bus (maybe free) that links Rose Hill station with the centre of Marple etc?
Or if the parking charge more than the bus fare.

A  bus running every 10 minutes should be good enough.

[rsh]

Just using Rose Hill would certainly be simpler from an operational point of view, and a good way to start off with a 12 minute service on the line. But I agree long term it would create too much disparity between the stations, especially if Marple not only continued at just a half hour frequency but all its trains had to presumably go right round via Hyde.

An ideal situation in my view would be a 12 minute frequency to both Rose Hill and Marple, giving a 6 minute frequency from Romiley onwards. Stopping at every station the line could absolutely justify this.

(Or an absolute ideal situation would be to extend the wires right out to New Mills or even Chinley for tram services to terminate there, with fairer fares to Manchester for those stations to stop everyone understandably driving and parking up at Marple, but I know that'll never happen!)

[bluebelly]

it wont be manned as well

[Dave]

There's a rather alarming letter from Cllr Craig Wright in this week's Stockport Express about the tram-train scheme.  This confirms what marplerambler spotted some weeks ago:

No reference is being made to Rose Hill in the TfGM study but have a look at the proposed map for the new system. Close to its terminus, the route suddenly changes from a route heading south east and suddenly switches to a south west direction: surely an indication that the tram is headed for Rose Hill after crossing the viaduct!

As far as I can recall, Cllr Wright has some kind of special responsibility for transport issues, so we can only assume that he knows what he is talking about, and that Rose Hill really is seriously intended to be the tram-train terminus.   

This is madness!   If Rose Hill were to become the terminus of a tram-train service into Manchester every 12 minutes, it would generate a huge amount of additional traffic at the west end of Marple on and around Stockport Road, just where traffic congestion is already a log-jam at peak times.  And the commuters who park at Marple Station, where there is ample parking, would switch to Rose Hill.  And where would they all park?   It's crazy! 

[ringi]

Part of the case for tram-train is that Piccadilly is starting to run out of platform space and by switching some services to tram-train there is a reduced demand for platforms at Piccadilly.  

I think some of the car heading to New Mills are due to Marple getting a lot better service then New Mill also anyone that lives on the Marple side of New Mills might as well drive to Marple instead of New Mills.
So if the Tram comes to Marple, we may get lots more people driving from New Mills.

[marplerambler]

Interesting to see the costs of the proposed change to trains-trams: £200million for the Manchester - Marple (or is it Rose Hill as indicated on the map?) £240million for the Manchester - Glossop line? Dream on! I will believe when I see it. I regularly cross Manchester I don't mind using the escalator at Piccadilly to get the tram to Victoria and couldn't care less about a through train to Wigan. What I do hate is the twenty odd minute walk from the far side of Rose Hill to Marple station in the evenings and on Sundays when the Rose Hill trains are not running. The 383/384s do not connect and what is supposed to be a public transport system serves primarily as a feeder system from Manchester to the car parks on Brabyns Brow (and just watch how many of the cars head for New Mills because the season ticket subsidised by the Council Tax payers of Stockport is so much cheaper than that from New Mills). Marple puts its two fingers up at people who cannot drive the second that they arrive on Marple station platform by confronting them with a steep hill and a long walk (for the less able) to its centre: it declares itself to be a no-go zone to people with mobility problems who cannot make it up the hill without a car. What is wrong with a dream that trams do not pander to the whims of car users and which could take the person who doesn't have a car via Rose Hill to the centre of Marple? Marple station will still be there on the through line to provide a link to the car users and the residents of Marple Bridge and the areas of Mellor within walking distance.

[BennyBlue]

Tram-train plans given backing

Councillors have backed plans to develop a tram-train strategy in Greater Manchester.

A report outlining proposals for a network of specially-designed vehicles, running on both street tracks and sharing tracks with other trains on railway lines, was approved by members of the Transport for Greater Manchester Committee’s Capital Projects and Policy Sub-Committee today.

An initial study into the feasibility, cost and benefits of several potential routes identified Manchester to Marple via Bredbury as the most economically viable route to develop as the region’s first tram-train line.

The other routes that are under consideration as part of a potential tram-train network are:

Manchester – Glossop
Manchester – Atherton – Wigan
Manchester – Sale – Altrincham – Hale/Knutsford
Manchester – East Didsbury – Hazel Grove
Stockport - Altrincham
A tram-train system would make greater use of Greater Manchester’s local rail network, facilitating more frequent services.

It would also provide better and more frequent access to the city centre and better connections with other public transport services there.

It is also expected that the ongoing cost of most routes would be more than met by fare revenue, making those services financially self-sustaining. 

Transport for Greater Manchester (TfGM) will now look at how the proposals can be taken forward for further development, as part of a long-term transport strategy.

The TfGM Committee Chair, Councillor Andrew Fender, said: “I am delighted that clear progress has been made with the identification of the potential for tram-train in Greater Manchester.

“Track-sharing between heavy and light rail trains with street-running capability is already well established in continental Europe, especially in Germany.

“Not only are there numerous benefits to commuters, such as increased capacity and frequency and better inner-city connectivity, but tram-trains also have the potential to be financially self-sustaining.

“At this point however, tram-train very much remains a long-term project for Greater Manchester, making it difficult to identify potential implementation dates or funding.”

[Dave]

No reference is being made to Rose Hill in the TfGM study but have a look at the proposed map for the new system. Close to its terminus, the route suddenly changes from a route heading south east and suddenly switches to a south west direction: surely an indication that the tram is headed for Rose Hill after crossing the viaduct! Perhaps not a bad idea....

I see what marplerambler means - but it certainly is a bad idea!  Far more passengers use Marple than Rose Hill, partly because Marple has a great deal more car parking.  If the trams only served Rose Hill a lot of drivers would want to switch to there, and a whole lot of new car park would have to be built (where?).  And this would add to the already serious peak hour traffic congestion at that end of the town.  Let's hope the kink in the line on the map is just a mistake!

I suspect that a huge obstacle would be Network Rail and the trams sharing track (and particularly responsibility for the viaduct) south of Romiley. Between Navigation Road and Altrincham, Network Rail has one track, the tram has the other.

Some confusion here.  Trains and trams can't share track, but trains and tram-trains can, and do in other parts of Europe.  The separation of lines between Navigation Road and Altrincham is irrelevant - those are trams, not tram-trains. 

[marplerambler]

No reference is being made to Rose Hill in the TfGM study but have a look at the proposed map for the new system. Close to its terminus, the route suddenly changes from a route heading south east and suddenly switches to a south west direction: surely an indication that the tram is headed for Rose Hill after crossing the viaduct! Perhaps not a bad idea - do not forget that part of the width of Middlewood Way could provide a tram link to Middlewood station and then on to Hazel Grove and Stockport: time wise it probably wouldn't be much quicker than the bus at quiet periods and you would also be dumped at Stockport station rather than the centre of Stockport but in the rush hour it would be a godsend.A tram would also bring a proper evening and Sunday service from Rose Hill to and from Manchester. Also if the tram can follow the road to the centre of Marple this would have to be via Rose Hill because the gradient of the hill from Marple station is so steep (though thinking about it a tram could come into Marple using the route of the 383/384).

Heaven forbid that trains from Sheffield terminate at Marple and passengers have to change. Don't forget, prior to the Hazel Grove link for express trains, if you wanted to travel to Sheffield you got off the train at New Mills and the train went into the tunnel. The train from Sheffield went onto a siding and both had to wait for the express trains to pass through. If things went wrong you stood in the cold for ages. There are too many people travelling to New Mills Central on this line for a change at Marple to be viable.

I suspect that a huge obstacle would be Network Rail and the trams sharing track (and particularly responsibility for the viaduct) south of Romiley. Between Navigation Road and Altrincham, Network Rail has one track, the tram has the other. Upgrading of the Network Rail track took place years ago and the tram track was allowed to decay resulting in a terrible tram journey into Altrincham for many years.

 I have said it before and I will say it again. If there is already a train line leave it alone and invest in trams on new routes which currently do not have a rail service. Many on the Altrincham, Bury and Oldham lines have considered incorporation into the tramway system to be a retrograde step. If the rolling stock used by the existing train company is inadequate let the train company electrify and use tram type rolling stock, if appropriate, when the existing trains need to be replaced.

[ringi]

Just thinking out loud…

Could the stopping service from Sheffield terminate at Marple (or Romiley) so connect with the trams?

Would the trams be better going to Rose Hill rather than Marple, so as not too effect the service past Marple?

What would it take to allow a tram to go to Rose Hill on the way to (or form) Marple?

If I ever needed to commute into Manchester again and the trams went to Maple and not Rose Hill, I may get my bike out and cycle to Romiley over the new bridge.