Chadwick Street / Trinity Street Development Announced

[Dave]

Here is something else to ponder upon. Does anybody know what would be the overall  implications of Kirkland reducing the size of its proposed store ( not the car park, just sales and backup) by say 25% ?                 

Pure speculation (but hey, that's what we all deal in here!): if the sales area went down to, say, 17,000 sq.ft (similar to the Co-op, I think?), that could strengthen the camsfc/Asda case, because the Kirkland scheme would no longer be a full-size supermarket. 

[simonesaffron]

Alstan,

There is of course much validity in what you say and I certainly hope that my "critique" did not seem to suggest otherwise, but the Lib Dem Constituency Association would not itself even claim to speak for all Lib Dems on all issues. Naturally they will grab a headline as they did in your example but they will of course dissect it at a later date if it suits.

Given the current information, I personally cannot see how the traffic generated in the Trinity Street scheme is not going to be much worse for the people of Marple than the traffic generated by ASDA and unless our MP is a bit thick (and if he's reading this and even if he isn't, I DON'T THINK HE IS- thick, I mean, ) then he must see the same. Nevertheless, I think that his comments were made when the view was still held that it was the Hibbert Lane Supermarket or the status quo and naturally as you would expect an MP to do he was playing to the gallery at the time.

Wheels, Stunnell's view is not irrelevant. He may not have a seat on the various committees but he is the Lib Dem MP in Lib Dem ruled Marple, in Lib Dem ruled Stockport. He is decidedly not without influence. He will know what the blow- by- blow situation is with both these planning applications as they are happening, long before you and I will. He will know anybody worth knowing that plays any part in that decision both locally and probably nationally. Marple is the Lib Dem jewel in the crown for the party. The MP and Marple 6 are close to each other. Three of the Marple 6 are on THE Council Executive and one of them is vice - chair of planning. They are a party within a party and they influence happenings in Marple, not always openly, in fact often in a covert way but they do. When you say that they have no influence - with respect you are just ...wishfully thinking...

Ponder on this, if there had been no Marple 6 and no Andrew Stunnell, there would have been no Trinity Street/ Kirkland development and the C&MSFC/ASDA would now be well on its way to sailing through. This you cannot deny.

Here is something else to ponder upon. Does anybody know what would be the overall  implications of Kirkland reducing the size of its proposed store ( not the car park, just sales and backup) by say 25% ?                 

[wheels]

Simone, thank you for your critique of my post earlier today regarding “gridlock”. The “News Extra” was, I think, published by the Lib Dem Constituency Association. The reference to “Gridlock” was not attributed to anyone in particular and it presumably represents a widely held view within the Association. It was however merely put forward by me as an example of the hype, mind games and manipulation to which the people of Marple have been subjected over the past twelve months

In relation to the ASDA issue Mr Stunnell refers to ‘traffic’ as one of the ‘very powerful planning arguments against such a development’ and if that is what he thinks in relation to the ASDA proposals then it is difficult to see how he can think otherwise in relation to the Kirkland proposals.

Well first of all it matters no a jot what Stunell thinks as he has no more say on the application than you or I, less in fact as he lives in Romiley. The decision is not his to make so we can sideline him. THe fact is the Kirkland proposals meet the already agreed planning guideline and I would therefore expect members will approve the application.

[alstan]

Simone, thank you for your critique of my post earlier today regarding “gridlock”. The “News Extra” was, I think, published by the Lib Dem Constituency Association. The reference to “Gridlock” was not attributed to anyone in particular and it presumably represents a widely held view within the Association. It was however merely put forward by me as an example of the hype, mind games and manipulation to which the people of Marple have been subjected over the past twelve months

In relation to the ASDA issue Mr Stunnell refers to ‘traffic’ as one of the ‘very powerful planning arguments against such a development’ and if that is what he thinks in relation to the ASDA proposals then it is difficult to see how he can think otherwise in relation to the Kirkland proposals.

[Dave]

That all makes sense, Simone.  Someone (JMC?) has argued persuasively on this thread, or one of the other Chadwick St threads, that there is a significant problem with a shortage of parking on the Chadwick Street site, and that this may be enough to cause potential supermarket tenants to turn it down.  Even as it is, it looks like an expensive scheme, with its rooftop car park, and the cost may well turn out to be prohibitive.  If either or both of those scenarios emerges, it will leave our conspiratorial councillors without their anti-Hibbert lane plan, and hopefully give the Asda/college scheme a clear run, ensuring that the college is able to achieve its much-needed redevelopment at Buxton Lane. 

[simonesaffron]

As far as the Council is concerned Trinity Street doesn't have to be a supermarket. There is a list of "other" things in line with the Council's Policy that it could be. The supermarket on Trinity Street is the scheme of local Councillors, the sole purpose being to prevent ASDA building on Hibbert Lane. Even if ASDA are successful and the Council develop Trinity Street as something else the sorting office will still have to be re-located and it has not yet been resolved. But we distract ourselves whilst the sorting office is very relevant it is not the subject.   

Even Kirkland developments are not compelled to develop it as a supermarket but they probably thought that it was as good a use as any and that they'd have local Councillor support which would eliminate ASDA. In fact many thought that ASDA would have seen the writing on the wall and left town by now even before the planning application was refused but of course they haven't. 

Now it seems that ASDA have got a second wind but the marple 6 will be in there somewhere behind town hall doors.

   

[wheels]

Agreed Dave, the deal has to be signed first then you address the sorting office. The location of the sorting office is not of sufficient importance that it can or should be an impediment to the development.

[Dave]

The sorting office will need to be addressed before Kirkland finds a partner and not after.

I don't see it that way at all.    If Kirkland don't find a partner, the whole deal will presumably collapse, the land will remain council property, and the sorting office won't need to be relocated after all.   So it's the other way round, surely: a supermarket will have to be signed up as a pre-requisite of the land disposal by SMBC to Kirkland going ahead.  Then, and only then, will it be necessary to find a new home for the sorting office.  But that should be no great problem: SMBC owns loads of land all over this area, and there will be plenty more people ready to sell plots at the right price.   Finding a suitable site for the sorting office should be no great problem. 

[simonesaffron]

The sorting office is not a red-herring it is a major obstacle to the Kirkland scheme and if they cannot be re-located to a place that they are happy with then the Trinity Street Development is in great jeopardy of loss. It might not matter to you Wheels where they are re-located but it may matter to others and it certainly matters to Royal Mail. The sorting office will need to be addressed before Kirkland finds a partner and not after.

I am most certainly no defender of MIA or at least some of its members conduct, but it has to be remembered that when the news about the Hibbert Lane supermarket first came out there was no mention of Trinity Street so MIA did not have all the information. Although it has to be said that didn't stop some of them "speculating". Anyway they have died now so RIP.     

[wheels]

That was before the  ASDA.CAMSFC enabling application, before certain schools applied for 6th form status, before Kirkland.

Things have shifted but we have to bear in mind things are shifting all the time and if Kirkland do come up with a client and resolve the sorting office problem then they'll shift again.

I would not expect the sorting office to be addressed until Kirkland have a partner and in any event does it really matter where it is. If I have to cycle to Romiley, Offerton or Stockport to pick up a parcel is that really any bother. The sorting office is a red herring.

[wheels]

Simone is correct here the Planning Committee will follow guidelines and Refuse ASDA and Accept Kirkland. That is what has made the MiA activities so misleading in that that was always going to be the outcome instead they go around frightening people and pretending they can have some effect. Enough of that.

I expect ASDA will then appeal and Kirkland will continue to look for a developer to work with, the Kirkland approval will of course be useful evidence for the Council is fighting any appeal.

What you cannot say is ASDA has to be approved at all cost because that helps the college, that is not an appropriate consideration when addressing the planning application which needs to be decided on planning issues alone.

I personally remain firmly in the "Not bothered either way" group.

[simonesaffron]

That was before the  ASDA.CAMSFC enabling application, before certain schools applied for 6th form status, before Kirkland.

Things have shifted but we have to bear in mind things are shifting all the time and if Kirkland do come up with a client and resolve the sorting office problem then they'll shift again.

[Dave]

The Council now will not want to be stuck with no supermarket and if they can't have Kirkland's scheme they might just go for ASDA at least that gives them a new College and keeps the students in town which is something that we all want - well I would hope so anyway.   

I hope you're right Simone, but I don't entirely share your confidence that the council 'will not want to be stuck with no supermarket'.  How do we know?  In the early days of the Hibbert Lane scheme, the councillors all seemed to come out against it, and at that time, before Chadwick Street came along, that would have meant no supermarket at all, and they didn't seem too bothered about that! 

[simonesaffron]

 
[/quote]
If orchestrated by the 6 it's much the same as bottling it, avoiding having to make a decision. Keeping clean hands so thay can face both ways.
[/quote]

Wheels, That's a very good definition of politics and that's what politicians do.

[simonesaffron]

If things remain as they are I'll be shocked if SMBC (whomsoever within its ranks is deemed to make the decision) do anything other than approve Trinity Street and refuse ASDA, but will it end there ?

There are lots of nuances in relation to both schemes and you could make a case for/against both of them.

There is though one thing that has never been in doubt about ASDA but conversely is wholly in doubt about Kirkland and that is that ASDA's  scheme is deliverable. At the time of writing the same cannot be said about Kirkland. It is becoming repetitive but there is still no sign of the sorting office re-locating and this is a significant problem. It is almost a year now and still there is no solution. The issue regarding the size of the Kirkland car park is a traffic issue but is it also a viability issue for any prospective client. Not enough parking...not enough cars...not enough customers ?

Where and who is Kirkland's client ? Who has even declared an interest let alone signed up. Kirkland will say that nobody will declare an interest until ASDA disappear completely from the scene. Then they will have their pick of clients. ASDA will say that Kirkland will not be able to get a client because the car park is too small therefore the store is not viable. They will say that Kirkland haven't got a client because there is not one to be had, and that their scheme cannot be delivered. as promised. Is Kirkland right - is ASDA right ? 

The country is littered with granted planning applications that got no further than that, a granted planning application and a delivered scheme are two different things.

The Council now will not want to be stuck with no supermarket and if they can't have Kirkland's scheme they might just go for ASDA at least that gives them a new College and keeps the students in town which is something that we all want - well I would hope so anyway.