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Author Topic: Fighting Dirty  (Read 56989 times)

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Belly

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Re: Fighting Dirty
« Reply #71 on: October 06, 2012, 07:39:19 AM »
OK, I think I get it! It's just about who pays for the planning application.  So in this case, the deal is, Asda pay for the planning application.  But if they don't get planning permission, the whole deal collapses and the ownership of the site reverts to camsfc.  Is that it?
Dave, that's about right. In cases like this, developers usually take out an 'option' to buy a site, I.e. they pay for the right to buy the site should planning permission be gained. They then pursue the planning application. The landowner doesn't have to do anything and still gets some cash from the option. Its a good idea as it reduces the risk for the developer as they are not left with a useless site should the planning process fail.

1877

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Re: Fighting Dirty
« Reply #70 on: October 05, 2012, 09:34:24 PM »
But to get back to "fighting dirty" I'm not convinced that, if true, it is as dirty as handing out leaflets which state that significant elements of the college's curriculum are to disappear. I seem to remember that this totally unfounded accusation was made at about this time last year in a leaflet handed out to prospective students and their parents as they attended the college's open day. Glasshouses and all that...

Dave

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Re: Fighting Dirty
« Reply #69 on: October 05, 2012, 08:52:33 PM »
OK, I think I get it! It's just about who pays for the planning application.  So in this case, the deal is, Asda pay for the planning application.  But if they don't get planning permission, the whole deal collapses and the ownership of the site reverts to camsfc.  Is that it?

Victor M

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Re: Fighting Dirty
« Reply #68 on: October 05, 2012, 08:21:00 PM »
Dave,
It is a very confusing way they do these things, basically each bidder puts in 2 bids, one assuming the site has outline planning permission for Retail and one assuming it hasn't. The seller then decides which one to go for, if there is a wide difference between the high and low bid the seller then has the choice to obtain the outline planning permission themselves but bear the cost of obtaining that outline planning permission.

Dave

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Re: Fighting Dirty
« Reply #67 on: October 05, 2012, 07:02:42 PM »
ASDA's bid for the site (without planning permission) was bigger than Tesco,

No I don't think ASDA have agreed to purchase the land without planning permission. .... the bid was subject to ASDA being able to obtain the necessary planning approval.

I hope that makes sense.

No, it's utterly confusing.  If the bid was 'subject to ASDA being able to obtain the necessary planning approval' then how on earth can it also be a 'bid for the site (without planning permission)'?   :-\

Victor M

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Re: Fighting Dirty
« Reply #66 on: October 05, 2012, 05:50:54 PM »
Dave,
No I don't think ASDA have agreed to purchase the land without planning permission. What happened was that during the bidding process there were 3 interested parties. The college dismissed the 3rd bid as they were only offerring £9M. That left ASDA and Tesco going head to head. Both parties put in 2 bids one assuming that the land already had planning permission for retail, the other bid assuming the land did not have outline planning permission for retail. Tesco's bid, assuming the land had outline planning permission was the highest. However ASDA's bid for the land without outline planning permission was higher than Tesco's. Therefore the College went for the ASDA bid, but the bid was subject to ASDA being able to obtain the necessary planning approval. I hope that makes sense.

Dave

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Re: Fighting Dirty
« Reply #65 on: October 05, 2012, 05:36:17 PM »
Good questions! Maybe there is a hint of desperation, and that's hardly surprising if it's really true that they have bought the site unconditionally. If that's the case, and if they don't get planning permission, then they are stuck with a patch of land that's worth only a fraction of what they paid for it :-(

Which reminds me, Victor, could you let us have the source for your revelation that Asda have acquired the land unconditionally?

wheels

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Re: Fighting Dirty
« Reply #64 on: October 05, 2012, 05:33:51 PM »
I'm interested to know now why ASDA should lie about the figures to Cllrs. Is it because they are clutching at straws, or are they very ruthless in trying to persuade people and if they have lied so blatantly about this how much more of their propaganda is lies?
It does not seem to me that thay lied at all Victor, you seem not to understand the explainations given.

Victor M

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Re: Fighting Dirty
« Reply #63 on: October 05, 2012, 05:09:07 PM »
I'm interested to know now why ASDA should lie about the figures to Cllrs. Is it because they are clutching at straws, or are they very ruthless in trying to persuade people and if they have lied so blatantly about this how much more of their propaganda is lies?

Dave

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Re: Fighting Dirty
« Reply #62 on: October 05, 2012, 11:45:54 AM »
That spreadsheet tell a very interesting story, and unlike the extract from the governors minutes which was posted yesterday, those figures do suggest that Asda have been telling porkies, or have been misinformed by the college.    :o

That said, the Asda letter referred to student data for the 'past four years' but those figures are for 2007 - 2010.  Until we see the 2011 figures we don't know for certain what the 'past four years' trend has been.  But we do know from those governors minutes that Cheadle undershot its target in 2011, so we can assume that the position is no better for last year. 

The only other thing people need to know is that those figures are raw enrolments - they don't differentiate between a full-time student taking three A levels and someone who just pops in for a needlework class on a Tuesday evening.  So if one of the campuses has a disproportionately high number of part-time enrolments it completely distorts any attempt at comparison.

The really meaningful figures are known as 'full-time equivalents' (FTEs for short), in which part-time enrolments are separated out from the full-time, and then added together to make full-time equivalents.  I seem to recall that the usual formula is a multiple of ten part-time enrolments = 1 FTE.  So if we really want to compare the position at Cheadle with the position at Marple, we need to see their FTEs.  But I'll leave it to one of you FOI enthusiasts to chase that.   ;D

Who was it who said 'there's lies, there's damn lies, and there's statistics'! 

Victor M

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Re: Fighting Dirty
« Reply #61 on: October 05, 2012, 11:09:55 AM »
As requested the figures available from the Freedom of Information act is for years 2007 - 2010.

The figures are a drop of 23.3% at Cheadle over that period and a drop of 12.5% at Marple. The base figures are available on the link below.

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/student_numbers_by_yearsitepostc#outgoing-150318

Now Dave do you agree the statement by the Senior manager at ASDA was a lie?

1877

  • Guest
Re: Fighting Dirty
« Reply #60 on: October 05, 2012, 11:08:20 AM »
A bit of research has uncovered the Department of Education value added figures which suggest that our local college is actually is doing rather better than some other providers in supporting its students in order to enable them to realise their potential:

Aquinas College - 986.2    
Cheadle and Marple Sixth Form College - 1000.8          
Cheadle Hulme School -  1001.6                
Stockport Academy - 980.9          
Stockport College - 989.3          
Stockport Grammar School - 1015.5   

      

admin

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Re: Fighting Dirty
« Reply #59 on: October 05, 2012, 09:10:11 AM »
Perhaps the way to get to the truth of the matter is to use the real figures? I think they are published in the FOI site in answer to one of the questions on there.
Mark Whittaker
The Marple Website

Harry

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Re: Fighting Dirty
« Reply #58 on: October 05, 2012, 09:03:30 AM »
As an example, consider the following figures (which are entirely fictional):

     Cheadle   Marple
Year 1   100       100
Year 2   110         90
Year 3   120         85
Year 4   100         83

Over the 4 year period Cheadle had no reduction and Marple had a reduction of 17 (which is also 17%).

Over the final year, year 4, Cheadle had a reduction of 20, while Marple only had a reduction of 2. So Cheadle had the greater fall in numbers.

Proof that both the earlier statements can be true.


Harry

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Re: Fighting Dirty
« Reply #57 on: October 05, 2012, 08:22:39 AM »
Because one refers to a four year period and the other to one year. As Dave pointed out, they can both be true.