Is 20 Plenty? (split from Police Commissioner Thread)

[Dave]

Personally I feel sorry for those sad guys who have to prove their virility by hanging on my rear bumper as I drive up Longhurst Lane at what I regard as a sensible 25 mph. But I'm sure Rudolph isn't one of those... ;-)

[Rudolph Hucker]

Henrietta, I wont overtake you if you are observing the speed limit, and by that I mean driving at that speed limit if conditions allow. However if someone (not you I'm sure) is demonstrating that they are incapable of safely operating a vehicle at the posted speed limit in good conditions by driving at 20 or even 25mph, they should loose their license in my opinion. I also think that people driving at 40mph in a 30 should loose their license. And for that matter people driving Suzuki Vitara's with wheels wider than their arches ;-)

Please don't get me wrong, left to my own devices I drive at 30mph in built up areas when it is safe to do so. I slow down for cyclists and horses as required, and then return to 30mph. Similarly I slow down for schools at appropriate times, whether or not there is a reduced limit posted. I don't see why why such driving would cause others offence. In ordinary circumstances 30mph is safe. There is zero evidence to warrant a blanket lower limit (but plenty of evidence to warrant enforcing the 30mph!).

P.S. I am generally grateful to the majority of drivers who voluntarily slow down to pass me as and when I cycle with my road aware young daughter. I don't get angry with those that don't. However I was frustrated on behalf of other drivers a few weeks ago when a driver wouldn't overtake us on the road back from the Middlewood way. It was slightly uphill and we were not able to pick up much speed. There was room to pass, and I signalled for the driver to do so, but as they didn't, 5 or 6 others (I think they were leaving the Rugby Club) were being held up. Consequently I chose to stop the 2 of us by the gutter so the convoy could get pass. Just as I get frustrated by the 20mph brigade, I will happily avoid holding others up.

[Tricky]

What is the point of introducing a limit when nobody is there to enforce it?
Exactly. At the meeting in Charlesworth after the afore-mentioned accident there was a police presence as well as local and county coucillors. There was much muttering by both the police and the councillors about mandatory speed limits and the "20 is Plenty" campaign but, as a lady pointed out, they were missing the elephant in the room. No speed limit is any use if it isn't enforced. In the 20-odd years I've done the journey between C'worth and Marple at various times of the day and night I have only ever seen ONE official police speed trap.

I got my first speeding ticket there.. go figure.

[My login is Henrietta]

What is the point of introducing a limit when nobody is there to enforce it?

Exactly. At the meeting in Charlesworth after the afore-mentioned accident there was a police presence as well as local and county coucillors. There was much muttering by both the police and the councillors about mandatory speed limits and the "20 is Plenty" campaign but, as a lady pointed out, they were missing the elephant in the room. No speed limit is any use if it isn't enforced. In the 20-odd years I've done the journey between C'worth and Marple at various times of the day and night I have only ever seen ONE official police speed trap.

[My login is Henrietta]

But twenty isn't plenty. If you can't drive at a steady thirty miles per hour, assuming decent weather conditions, without fear of an accident then you don't deserve your licence. Bearing in mind most speedometers show 30 miles an hour when the car is physically travelling at 26 miles an hour. When the "twenty is plenty" numpties drive at an indicated twenty miles an hour they are actually driving at about 17 or 18 miles an hour. I WILL OVERTAKE YOU!!!!!!!!

Do not forget, some people have a 50 mile commute. For any number of reasons moving may not be an option (and in some instances if they gave up the work, hundreds of people could lose their jobs). They cannot take a horse or bike, there isn't public transport, and every minute on the way home stuck behind someone who is incapable of driving at the legal speed limit is a minute they are being needlessly kept them from their families. THEY WILL OVERTAKE YOU!!!!!!!!!

In both those instances, the party overtaking is not some reckless criminal but probably someone who has driven at 30 mph (perhaps even an indicated 33 mph ;-) on various occasions over a few years who has never knocked over a child, dog, horse etc. Please don't try to marginalise otherwise law abiding citizens for no good reason.

Nothing will stop the idiot who, as has been said before, ignores the speed limit. Driving at 20 just gives them more opportunities to put my life, your life, and our respective friends and families life in danger. Please do not confuse the 2 - and drive at 30 miles per hour.

Thank you.

Well, I'm sorry you don't like it if I observe the mandatory speedlimit for the selfish reason that I don't want to lose my licence. I don't mind you overtaking me. I'd just prefer it if you did it in circumstances which were not likely to kill me - I think I mentioned blind bends, double white lines, etc!

[Dave]

OK.  So which offences are less serious than exceeding a 20 mph speed limit?

[wheels]

Excuse me Dave I think reducing deaths by dangerous driving is a serious issue. I am sure at least one of our councillors would agree.

[Dave]

What is the point of introducing a limit when nobody is there to enforce it?

I agree, it makes no sense, but it serves to illustrate the futility of imposing new laws on people when they don't command a degree of common consent.  '20's plenty' could well come in to this category, I think.

Don't forget, Greater Manchester Police are currently dealing with a reduction of 20% in their budget over the five years 2010 - 2015, and this is causing some 3,000 jobs to be lost, affecting both police officers and civilian staff.  In this context, most people would probably say that a reduced police force should be focussing on more serious offences, rather than hanging around Marple trying to catch someone driving at 25 mph! 

[Harry]

I think "20's Plenty" is very valid for some of the more minor roads in Marple. Bowden Lane comes to mind - lots of parked cars, difficult to cross safely, and you'd be mad to let your kids cycle there. It's supposed to be 20mph on parts of that, but many folks (young mums in minis being the worst offenders) seem incapable of sticking to 40 let alone 20.

In fact, the whole of Bowden Lane has a 20 mph limit, not just parts of it. As Cyberman points out, it is very rare to see anyone obeying this limit, except for when the road is brought to a virtual standstill by the parents dropping off / picking up their children.

What is the point of introducing a limit when nobody is there to enforce it?

[wheels]

I have worked on speed awareness programmesand they really are effective. Its also important to change both in fact and in people minds the priorities for road  users, so that we all accept pedestrians are the primary road users and have priorityover all other traffic followed by cyclists and then buses and motorised transport. This approach has been successfully accepted in a number of other countries.

[Cyberman]

I think "20's Plenty" is very valid for some of the more minor roads in Marple. Bowden Lane comes to mind - lots of parked cars, difficult to cross safely, and you'd be mad to let your kids cycle there. It's supposed to be 20mph on parts of that, but many folks (young mums in minis being the worst offenders) seem incapable of sticking to 40 let alone 20. Because of this it is proposed to build speed humps there - so we all have to suffer. Unfortunately a significant number of drivers have no regard for the safety of others. I suggest more enforcement - and don't fine people, not the first time anyway, send them on a speed awareness course. This has had a great effect on some people I know.

[Dave]

I noticed a '20's plenty' sticker by the bus terminus at Mellor recreation ground recently - it's not an official one, just something that someone has taken it upon themselves to put up. 

I've got some sympathy for the '20's plenty' enthusiasts, but the problem is the 24/7 nature of the restriction.  For example, when I saw that sticker in Mellor it happened to be late in the evening, on a straight, wide and completely deserted stretch of road.  Just out of interest, I dropped my speed to 20 to see what it would feel like, and I have to say it just felt ridiculous to be driving at that speed in those conditions. 

So I tend to agree with Rudolph, though I would not put it quite so forcefully or SHOUT SO MUCH!!!!   

[amazon]

But twenty isn't plenty. If you can't drive at a steady thirty miles per hour, assuming decent weather conditions, without fear of an accident then you don't deserve your licence. Bearing in mind most speedometers show 30 miles an hour when the car is physically travelling at 26 miles an hour. When the "twenty is plenty" numpties drive at an indicated twenty miles an hour they are actually driving at about 17 or 18 miles an hour. I WILL OVERTAKE YOU!!!!!!!!

Do not forget, some people have a 50 mile commute. For any number of reasons moving may not be an option (and in some instances if they gave up the work, hundreds of people could lose their jobs). They cannot take a horse or bike, there isn't public transport, and every minute on the way home stuck behind someone who is incapable of driving at the legal speed limit is a minute they are being needlessly kept them from their families. THEY WILL OVERTAKE YOU!!!!!!!!!

In both those instances, the party overtaking is not some reckless criminal but probably someone who has driven at 30 mph (perhaps even an indicated 33 mph ;-) on various occasions over a few years who has never knocked over a child, dog, horse etc. Please don't try to marginalise otherwise law abiding citizens for no good reason.

Nothing will stop the idiot who, as has been said before, ignores the speed limit. Driving at 20 just gives them more opportunities to put my life, your life, and our respective friends and families life in danger. Please do not confuse the 2 - and drive at 30 miles per hour.

Thank you.

Never a dull moment on this website .now wheels and Dave will start .disagreeing .

[Rudolph Hucker]

But twenty isn't plenty. If you can't drive at a steady thirty miles per hour, assuming decent weather conditions, without fear of an accident then you don't deserve your licence. Bearing in mind most speedometers show 30 miles an hour when the car is physically travelling at 26 miles an hour. When the "twenty is plenty" numpties drive at an indicated twenty miles an hour they are actually driving at about 17 or 18 miles an hour. I WILL OVERTAKE YOU!!!!!!!!

Do not forget, some people have a 50 mile commute. For any number of reasons moving may not be an option (and in some instances if they gave up the work, hundreds of people could lose their jobs). They cannot take a horse or bike, there isn't public transport, and every minute on the way home stuck behind someone who is incapable of driving at the legal speed limit is a minute they are being needlessly kept them from their families. THEY WILL OVERTAKE YOU!!!!!!!!!

In both those instances, the party overtaking is not some reckless criminal but probably someone who has driven at 30 mph (perhaps even an indicated 33 mph ;-) on various occasions over a few years who has never knocked over a child, dog, horse etc. Please don't try to marginalise otherwise law abiding citizens for no good reason.

Nothing will stop the idiot who, as has been said before, ignores the speed limit. Driving at 20 just gives them more opportunities to put my life, your life, and our respective friends and families life in danger. Please do not confuse the 2 - and drive at 30 miles per hour.

Thank you.

[My login is Henrietta]

 Re the "20 Is Plenty "scheme.

I no longer ride my horse on the main road through Charlesworth as the road is so dangerous. Following a horrible accident last winter when a horse and rider were hit by a speeding car, resulting in serious injuries to the rider, the death, at the scene, of the horse and, I'm told, serious injuries to the driver, the residents of Charlesworth and Chisworth got onto the "20 Is Plenty" bandwagon. Whilst the thought is very laudable, to be honest, I think it's naive to expect that drivers who ignore a legally binding 30mph limit will oblige with a purely discretionary 20mph request. In fact the "20 is Plenty" sign near the cricket ground has been vandalised.

I have to drive between Marple and Charlesworth 4 times a day and it scares me silly. Drivers ignore the 40mph speed limit out of the villages, overtaking on blind bends and double white lines, on-coming lorries speeding round blind bends on the wrong side of the road and attempts by drivers to bully other drivers who are observing the speed limit  with blasts of horns, tail-gating, full-beam headlights at night and headlight flashing day and night.