Re: Is Marple Hall to have a Sixth Form?

[Dave]

It's some years since I taught in a school, and I never did so for as long as Henrietta did, but I think she is absolutely right.  Many (not all) good teachers value the chance to teach their subject to a higher level, and are attracted to posts in 11 - 18 schools because of this. 

As for this:

Also in a school like MH there is generally insufficient depth to provide a wide range of programmes.

When the two single-sex grammar schools were merged into MH Comp in the mid-1970s, there were about 450 pupils in the 6th form.  That's more than enough to ensure a good range of subjects.

Further the youngsters have a  much worse learning experience than they would at a College.

That's a sweeping generalisation for which there is no evidence.  As long as the pupil numbers are big enough, there is no reason why the learning experience in a school sixth form should be any worse than at a  sixth form college. 

[My login is Henrietta]

My experience of 6th Forms is that they weaken the lower years by drawing away from them the better teachers who naturally want to work in the 6th form. Also in a school like MH there is generally insufficient depth to provide a wide range of programmes. Further the youngsters have a  much worse learning experience than they would at a College. But I can see that this is an even greater threat to the College than ASDA would ever be.

My teaching experience (25+ years in grammar and comprehensive schools) doesn't support this. In my experience schools which have 6th forms attract a better class of teacher and those teachers were deployed in all year groups.

(EDIT: Not "a better class of teacher" in the snobbish sense - I meant in terms of academic excellence!)

[jjjr40]

connect the the various subjects amongst wide variety of boards to answer your questions!

[Dave]

Yes, Howard is right, but the 2008 Act doesn't necessarily mean that all 16-year-olds will be required to do A levels (that would not work, obviously!), so I don't think it's quite accurate to say there will be 'a lot more sixth-formers'. The definition of 'education and training' in the 2008 Act is a broad one - it includes apprenticeships, work-based training, and vocational training like ONDs, GNVQs etc. 

[hollins]

Howard is correct - students are required to stay on to 17 (and, in future years, 18). Stockport Council seems to have been very slow to react to the fact that, as from next September, there will simply be a lot more sixth formers.

To offer a decent range of A-levels (or post-16 vocational subjects) whilst still keeping viable class sizes any sixth form needs to be a reasonable size: I would guess at least 100+ places per year. Some new building needs to go on to accommodate that.

You will also need more teachers.

[Howard]

Surely the additional places in sixth forms are not solely to do with competition. The Education and Skills Act 2008 raised the minimum age at which a person can leave education or training to eighteen and entry for sixth forms in 2013 is the first year in which it is a requirement.

[wheels]

This is quite interesting: http://www.chhs.stockport.sch.uk/#

It seems that Cheadle Hulme High School, which became an Academy last September, immediately applied to open a sixth form, and is doing so for its existing year 11 pupils from next September, and for external applicants from September 2014.   And they have got government capital funding to build a new sixth form block.   Now that really will be worrying the Cheadle part of camsfc.  

Bramhall also, its one of the factors causing a fall in numbers at the college. Stockport College has now got  its act together but even Aquinas went into its reserve list last Sept the first time for many years leaving C&M the most vulnerable of the colleges. Decent post 16th education really needs to be provided at a college what we are seeing is empire building by Headteachers at the expenses of young people.

[Dave]

This is quite interesting: http://www.chhs.stockport.sch.uk/#

It seems that Cheadle Hulme High School, which became an Academy last September, immediately applied to open a sixth form, and is doing so for its existing year 11 pupils from next September, and for external applicants from September 2014.   And they have got government capital funding to build a new sixth form block.   Now that really will be worrying the Cheadle part of camsfc.  

[Dave]

The school certainly doesn't have to become an academy in order to run a sixth form, but it will need the support of the local authority.

Yes, that's right.  It was me that wrote that Marple Hall would have to become an Academy in order to establish a sixth form, but that was simply because I assumed (and still do) that the likelihood of SMBC deciding to start a sixth form at MH, and raising the capital to build the necessary accommodation, was zero!   

But if MH did become an Academy it could just happen (not this year, of course, but maybe in two or three years time).  So we could find a few million quid of public money being spent to rebuild the Buxton Lane campus of camsfc, and just down the road, a few more million quid of public money being spent at Marple Hall, in order to compete for the same students.  Madness, or what?   

[wheels]

I would be delighted if Marple Hall had a sixth form - from the ongoing experience with my own children it's a good school - but I really can't see any such change happening in September 2013. The school isn't big enough (having just taken in 200 pupils from the now-closed Offerton High). My family is in the same boat as JMC; my daughter in year 11 has already had to make her choice of sixth-form college, so this would be far too late for her.

The inputs from Bowden Guy and Interested Observer were helpful. The school certainly doesn't have to become an academy in order to run a sixth form, but it will need the support of the local authority. Like Interested Observer I'm bemused by the absence of any notification about Statutory Consultation. I'm sure that those with school-age children ought to be stakeholders.

My experience of 6th Forms is that they weaken the lower years by drawing away from them the better teachers who naturally want to work in the 6th form. Also in a school like MH there is generally insufficient depth to provide a wide range of programmes. Further the youngsters have a  much worse learning experience than they would at a College. But I can see that this is an even greater threat to the College than ASDA would ever be.

[hollins]

I would be delighted if Marple Hall had a sixth form - from the ongoing experience with my own children it's a good school - but I really can't see any such change happening in September 2013. The school isn't big enough (having just taken in 200 pupils from the now-closed Offerton High). My family is in the same boat as JMC; my daughter in year 11 has already had to make her choice of sixth-form college, so this would be far too late for her.

The inputs from Bowden Guy and Interested Observer were helpful. The school certainly doesn't have to become an academy in order to run a sixth form, but it will need the support of the local authority. Like Interested Observer I'm bemused by the absence of any notification about Statutory Consultation. I'm sure that those with school-age children ought to be stakeholders.

[sgk]

Methinks an update of the school's website is due.

http://www.marplehall.stockport.sch.uk/index.php/news/story/113 :

07/12/2011   Following a number of meetings and attendance at a range of presentations Marple Hall Governors have made the decision not to proceed at this time with a consultation for Converter Academy Status. 

[Interested observer]

New poster here - bonsoir. Having looked at this thread, I took up the idea of emailing Shan Alexander and she has confirmed that the Local Authority has commenced a period of statutory consultation to, potentially, move to a system whereby indvidual schools could have their own sixth forms. I specifically asked whether this "consultation" was informal or statutory - she confirmed that it was statutory (whilst also emphasising the quality of our existing sixth form colleges in Stockport).

Has anyone seen any official notice of the consultation? An advert in the local press? A letter to Marple Hall parents?

[Bowden Guy]

The latest guidance (September 2012) on the DES website for maintained schools who wish to change their age-range by adding a sixth form states that there are five statutory stages that the institution must follow:

1. consultation with stakeholders
2. publication of a statutory notice by the proposer
3. representation period, normally 4 weeks, but 6 weeks in specified circumstances
4. decision by the LA in most cases, otherwise by the schools adjudicator; and
5. implementation, if approved

I don’t know about the rest of you but I have not heard anything from the school or local authority about any consultation. I suppose there would still be time to do this for a September 2013 start if a “decision” has already been taken. However, I have been unable to find any minutes of Governor meetings on the school’s website – unlike the very clear  section on the C&MSFC website. Ironic, given that the College has been lambasted and criticised for being “secretive” during the course of the past two years.

Here is the link to the DFE website….

http://www.education.gov.uk/aboutdfe/statutory/g00213189/expanding-a-maintained-mainstream-school

[Dave]

It's always such a pleasure to bask in the radiance of your charm, Duke   

I make no apology for 'blabbering on' about the importance of education on the supermarket threads, because someone has to.   Education matters and supermarkets don't (well, not as much anyway).

As for the red herring of whether Marple Hall is going to start a sixth form, I'll think about that if and when a proposal ever emerges.