Council Reports for Marple Area Committee

[amazon]

Hey Amazon, lets have an Asda on Chadwick Street. It's big enough

Why not love one but MIA would find something to start a petition .

[Belly]

Whilst I am no defender of MIA in general, (I have not signed their petition)  I believe that they have always made it clear from the onset that their opposition is specifically against a Supermarket on the Hibbert Lane site. There have been a variety of reasons for this but the core - one has been that the development is "out of town" and as such will have a devastating impact on local businesses in the town centre and indeed kill it off entirely. To my knowledge they have raised no objections to any other supermarket elsewhere in Marple and certainly not the one proposed on Chadwick/Trinity Street. I expect on the grounds that it is central and will have the opposite effect.

As for local Councillors, half of them made their views clear from the onset. There were local elections last year and both Councillors; Alexander and Candler stood. If my memory is correct both were returned with thumping majorities - so their stance doesn't seem to have harmed them politically. The other half stayed silent but I sure that this  was just part of an agreed, collective, political strategy by all six of them.

I don't really have any views on ASDA/CAMSFC Supermarket although I would really hate to see the College leave town as I believe it would have a devastating impact (much more than an out of town ASDA ) on the centre's economy and obviously a negative impact on education in Marple. This is of course is my personal opinion, none of it is not absolute, I cannot prove it any of it and I accept that people will disagree with me.

It has to be said also that CAMSFC has brought about its own downfall in this. It has gone against all advice and taken ASDA's thirty pieces of silver. It has relied on ASDA'S financial muscle and its track record of riding roughshod over any opposition. What would/could have happened if they had co-operated with the Council and been more open with the community - we will never know. In simple terms they have "played dirty" but they have not reckoned with the Marple 6 ( for they are undoubtedly unanimous on this issue) playing dirtier than anybody. Whilst histrionics abounded Local  Councillors they have quietly and strategically managed Trinity Street from a dormant car-park to the issue it is now.

I won't be going to the meeting next week as it is an absolute foregone conclusion. Although it has to be said that the Council's response to the planning apps is an absolute masterstroke. It's "viability" issue is brilliant and will surely and completely scupper ASDA'S/CAMSFC plans for Hibbert Lane. It would not surprise me for one if they even decide not to appeal.

Nor would it surprise me if the site on Trinity Street never sees a supermarket.              

Simone I understand MIA's position as well - what has annoyed me a little is their tactics and the way that the bluster that they have created over the ASDA site seems to have created a vacuum in the debate over Chadwick Street and what is now being proposed there. The fact that MIA threw the kitchen sink at ASDA and raised a multiude of issues as reasons to object - a significant number of which apply to the Chadwick Street site, in my view means that they should have at least raised the same issues at Chadwick Street and let the public then properly scrutinise the details of both cases. We all know that if you throw enough mud then some will stick and that is certainly the case here. We all know MIA oppose Asda (ergo it must be bad) but they don't oppose (or at least not publically) Chadwick Street so therefore many make the assumption that it must be good.

Its sometimes been hard to take MIA seriously when they trot out the politically trite statement that they "have no view on Chadwick Street". Well they are seeking to influence the future of my town with regards to its single biggest matter for many years, they ought to have the good grace to at least comment on the whole picture, rather than set out only half the story.

Chadwick Street really worries me in terms of its potential infliuence on Marple centre. It will single handedly remove all spare car parking from the town and leave us in a situation whereby any 'event' will cause real problems. Where are the visitors to the town going to park for the Christmas cracker, the food festival, the carnival, etc, etc? All events that promote the town, not a supermarket business. There is a real danger that this could (if built) cause a much greater strain on Marple as a commercial centre than all of the out of town v town centre retail impact arguments. I know the Council think that variable message signs will help manage the future parking situation on a day to day basis, but will it really? Logistically this will be a nightmare as most of Marple's car parks are tiny, cramped and difficult to manoeuvre in (I avoid some as I like my car dent free) - I also have my doubts as to whether it is technically deliverable. VMS also adds yet another layer of cost onto an already expensive scheme, further straining viability.

All in all. Its been an interesting campain and clearly its not all over yet. I just have a nagging doubt that perhaps, as a community, we have been been sold a bit of a dummy and, in time, might look back on the last few months with regret.

[Tricky]

Hey Amazon, lets have an Asda on Chadwick Street. It's big enough

The idea of a supermarket on Trinity Street/Chadwick Street is an utter nonsense.

MIA should be ashamed of themselves not fighting this.. it would cause EVERY single issue they say a supermarket on Hibbert Lane would  bring.. and yet it doesn't provide for the future of educational facilities.
 

[Dave]

A thoughtful analysis, and I go along with nearly all of it, Simone, especially this bit: 

Nor would it surprise me if the site on Trinity Street never sees a supermarket.

The only aspect over which we might part company is on whether the college has at any point 'played it dirty'.  Naive, clumsy, politically inept, certainly.   But dirty - I'm not so sure.  Simone writes that the college 'has gone against all advice'.  What advice have they ignored? How might 'co-operating with the council' have led to a better outcome?  It takes two to tango - what evidence is there that the council would ever have been prepared to co-operate with the college? 

Politicians stabbing their own voters in the back by wrecking their college's improvement plans - now that's what I call 'dirty'! 

[simonesaffron]

Whilst I am no defender of MIA in general, (I have not signed their petition)  I believe that they have always made it clear from the onset that their opposition is specifically against a Supermarket on the Hibbert Lane site. There have been a variety of reasons for this but the core - one has been that the development is "out of town" and as such will have a devastating impact on local businesses in the town centre and indeed kill it off entirely. To my knowledge they have raised no objections to any other supermarket elsewhere in Marple and certainly not the one proposed on Chadwick/Trinity Street. I expect on the grounds that it is central and will have the opposite effect.

As for local Councillors, half of them made their views clear from the onset. There were local elections last year and both Councillors; Alexander and Candler stood. If my memory is correct both were returned with thumping majorities - so their stance doesn't seem to have harmed them politically. The other half stayed silent but I sure that this  was just part of an agreed, collective, political strategy by all six of them.

I don't really have any views on ASDA/CAMSFC Supermarket although I would really hate to see the College leave town as I believe it would have a devastating impact (much more than an out of town ASDA ) on the centre's economy and obviously a negative impact on education in Marple. This is of course is my personal opinion, none of it is not absolute, I cannot prove it any of it and I accept that people will disagree with me.

It has to be said also that CAMSFC has brought about its own downfall in this. It has gone against all advice and taken ASDA's thirty pieces of silver. It has relied on ASDA'S financial muscle and its track record of riding roughshod over any opposition. What would/could have happened if they had co-operated with the Council and been more open with the community - we will never know. In simple terms they have "played dirty" but they have not reckoned with the Marple 6 ( for they are undoubtedly unanimous on this issue) playing dirtier than anybody. Whilst histrionics abounded Local  Councillors they have quietly and strategically managed Trinity Street from a dormant car-park to the issue it is now.

I won't be going to the meeting next week as it is an absolute foregone conclusion. Although it has to be said that the Council's response to the planning apps is an absolute masterstroke. It's "viability" issue is brilliant and will surely and completely scupper ASDA'S/CAMSFC plans for Hibbert Lane. It would not surprise me for one if they even decide not to appeal.

Nor would it surprise me if the site on Trinity Street never sees a supermarket.               

[sooty2]

Hey Amazon, lets have an Asda on Chadwick Street. It's big enough

[amazon]

What I still struggle to understand in all this is why MIA have not made any reference to the Chadwick St scheme in their literature. Again the current newsleter with respect to local area committee extols people to muster and vote 'down with ASDA', whilst not mentioning that at the same meeting, the Council will approve another identical sized supermarket in the town and that MIA will not utter a word on the subject. Will many of those who turn up at the request of MIA, be surprised to find the other scheme being promoted for approval at the same meeting.

I sincerely hope the objections that MIA raise to the ASDA store at the meeting are site specific. If they start to raise general issues associated with a superstore e.g. traffic, lighting, etc then I will be very disappointed indeed, as they appear not to have lodged the same objections to the other proposal, which would have exactly the same effects. How can this be right and how is this 'Marple in Action'?

you will be lucky if they reply to this they have this obsession against ASDA .

[Belly]

What I still struggle to understand in all this is why MIA have not made any reference to the Chadwick St scheme in their literature. Again the current newsleter with respect to local area committee extols people to muster and vote 'down with ASDA', whilst not mentioning that at the same meeting, the Council will approve another identical sized supermarket in the town and that MIA will not utter a word on the subject. Will many of those who turn up at the request of MIA, be surprised to find the other scheme being promoted for approval at the same meeting.

I sincerely hope the objections that MIA raise to the ASDA store at the meeting are site specific. If they start to raise general issues associated with a superstore e.g. traffic, lighting, etc then I will be very disappointed indeed, as they appear not to have lodged the same objections to the other proposal, which would have exactly the same effects. How can this be right and how is this 'Marple in Action'?

[amazon]

Correct.  The petition is irrelevant now, although I think it did have an effect at an earlier stage, in that it probably prompted the council to put the Chadwick Street site on the market.  And the rest is history.  

In other words, this is what we have seen over the past eighteen months or so:

1.  The college's plans emerge, that they intend to finance a redevelopment and modernisation scheme by selling Hibbert Lane to a supermarket.
2.   MIA gets going, campaigns noisily, pesters the councillors and our MP to support them in opposing the plan.
3.  The politicians, lacking the vision and the courage to see that their priority should be securing the best possible educational  facilities for the people who vote for them, cave in.
4.   The councillors privately consult planning officers at SMBC, who advise them that although Hibbert Lane is zoned for housing and not retail, if they reject the application it could be overturned on appeal because of the demonstrable need for a proper supermarket in Marple, and because Hibbert Lane, as an 'edge of centre' site, would pass the sequential test because there is no suitable and available town centre site.
5.   Determined to scupper the scheme, the councillors identify a possible supermarket site in the town centre, and put it on the market, thereby ensuring that Hibbert Lane fails the sequential test.    
6.   Mission accomplished - our councillors and our MP have succeeded in their objective of wrecking a scheme to provide first class twenty-first century educational facilities for out children and grandchildren.  

Well done.........    
 

Spot on as always .

[Dave]

Correct.  The petition is irrelevant now, although I think it did have an effect at an earlier stage, in that it probably prompted the council to put the Chadwick Street site on the market.  And the rest is history.  

In other words, this is what we have seen over the past eighteen months or so:

1.  The college's plans emerge, that they intend to finance a redevelopment and modernisation scheme by selling Hibbert Lane to a supermarket.
2.   MIA gets going, campaigns noisily, pesters the councillors and our MP to support them in opposing the plan.
3.  The politicians, lacking the vision and the courage to see that their priority should be securing the best possible educational  facilities for the people who vote for them, cave in.
4.   The councillors privately consult planning officers at SMBC, who advise them that although Hibbert Lane is zoned for housing and not retail, if they reject the application it could be overturned on appeal because of the demonstrable need for a proper supermarket in Marple, and because Hibbert Lane, as an 'edge of centre' site, would pass the sequential test because there is no suitable and available town centre site.
5.   Determined to scupper the scheme, the councillors identify a possible supermarket site in the town centre, and put it on the market, thereby ensuring that Hibbert Lane fails the sequential test.
6.   Mission accomplished - our councillors and our MP have succeeded in their objective of wrecking a scheme to provide first class twenty-first century educational facilities for out children and grandchildren.  

Well done.........    

[simonesaffron]

MIA were asking people to sign their petition in order to stop Tesco from demolishing the swimming pool and building a large roundabout in its place. It took a long time for people to realise they were being conned. Asda were not even in consideration at the time.

Very true. Myself and others raised these objections directly to the council in the consultation. They have taken our views on board BUT are still considering the petition in 'general view' terms about a supermarket from local people!!!! Many of the people in that petition are not local at all.

The MIA petition will in reality carry exactly the same weight ( apart fom in the minds of MIA ) if it had been collected 5 years ago, last night, or written in Swahili.

[JMC]

MIA were asking people to sign their petition in order to stop Tesco from demolishing the swimming pool and building a large roundabout in its place. It took a long time for people to realise they were being conned. Asda were not even in consideration at the time.

Very true. Myself and others raised these objections directly to the council in the consultation. They have taken our views on board BUT are still considering the petition in 'general view' terms about a supermarket from local people!!!! Many of the people in that petition are not local at all.

[marpleexile]

Amid all the pages of bumf, though, there are some interesting nuggets, and one of them is an estimate of how much we residents of Marple currently spend at supermarkets outside Marple:  

That adds up to nearly £27 million which we spend every year at these supermarkets.  Compare that with the *'convenience goods' turnover of the two existing Marple supermarkets and the local shops, which is put at £21.8 million.
[/i]

Umm, how do "they" know how much Marple residents spend in which shops? No-one has asked me how much I spend where. Is there some miraculous way of separating Marple residents' expenditure from other areas' residents' expenditure?

There are a number of ways - tracking car regs in car parks, for example, would be very accurate, although costly. But most likely it's a combination of Loyalty Cards and random sample surveys.

Whilst the figures quoted won't be 100% accurate, even taking into account a variance of +/- 20% they still show that there is a significant demand for a "proper" supermarket in Marple.

[My login is Henrietta]

Thats correct Dave but actuallly these silly plans for a 6th form at Marple Hall will do more to damage the collage than any failure of the ASDA application.

Why should the establishment (perhaps I should say RE-establishment) of a sixth form at Marple Hall be a "silly idea"? If MH can set up a better 6th form than CaM can supply (and it wouldn't be difficult) does it matter?

[My login is Henrietta]

Amid all the pages of bumf, though, there are some interesting nuggets, and one of them is an estimate of how much we residents of Marple currently spend at supermarkets outside Marple:  

That adds up to nearly £27 million which we spend every year at these supermarkets.  Compare that with the *'convenience goods' turnover of the two existing Marple supermarkets and the local shops, which is put at £21.8 million.
[/i]

Umm, how do "they" know how much Marple residents spend in which shops? No-one has asked me how much I spend where. Is there some miraculous way of separating Marple residents' expenditure from other areas' residents' expenditure?