Nuhope at Marple Hall School

[Bowden Guy]

Simon, you appear to be inferring that I support what people often call "traditional" values. As you well know, I have not actually offered an opinion  on this subject. The point I am making is that it is completely bonkers to throw around the word "fascist" at people you happen to disagree with. Unfortunately, this is the default position for many on the (far) left nowadays. It is like calling someone a "Communist" if they happen to believe in  higher taxation or greater equality in society. Both are infantile positions.

[wheels]

Simone,
Just as a matter of interest I had the same treatment for being left handed in the 50s. Also I was publicly ridiculed for being left handed by a head teacher. These were the tradition values of the age.

Also I should have asked are traditional values traditional christian values or secular values???

And the challanging of tradional has nothing at all to do with Goodwins Law

[simonesaffron]

Indeed, but the principle is what counts, and at a pinch any brutal totalitarian regime will do: Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Saddam Hussein - take your pick! 

Thanks Dave,

 Do you mean like 'Nuhope'.

[simonesaffron]

So, people who believe in traditional standards/discipline etc  (or whatever you want to call it) are "fascists". That really is below the belt and quite pathetic. Can't you do any better? And, since when did task orientation become linked to Fascism? Have you never heard of Stalin's Five-Year Plans?

I always find that people who use the word traditional take traditional to mean what they want to mean. So who's traditional standards are we talking about are we talking about Victorian values here, the traditional values I was subject to in the 50s or the values of the 80's. It's a word that means nothing other than to the the person using it.

It is an interesting, philosophical observation that you make Wheels and I think a sound one too. Brings a bit of fresh thinking to the debate.

A cousin of mine who started school in Liverpool in the 1950's told me that Teachers used to repeatedly "smack" her on the back of her hand with a wooden rule because she was left-handed. They were trying to discipline her to write with her right hand as when you write with your left you draw your hand across your work and in those days you were likely to smudge. She still writes with her left to this day.

When I went to school in the 60's; if you were unpunctual or untidy or forgot your book or didn't have your tie on or your shoes fastened you were punished, often by detention sometimes by being beaten. I might be exaggerating but I think you were actually punished if you breathed the wrong way. I did actually witness, personally, one student being beaten for having..."a smirk on her face"...  Nowadays it would be called abuse, the beating that is not the smirk. Is that what Nuhope really is 1960's schooling only without being beaten ? Maybe they could reintroduce the beatings next year and we could all take comfort in knowing that our children/grandchildren are being disciplined in the same way we were. Well it never did us an harm did it ?   

Is that what you mean Bowden by ..."traditional/standards and discipline...?

[Dave]

Indeed, but the principle is what counts, and at a pinch any brutal totalitarian regime will do: Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Saddam Hussein - take your pick! 

[simonesaffron]

This has been an interesting and enjoyable debate so far conducted with much better manners than many threads but it looks like Godwin's law is about to be proved again (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law)

Admin,


I thought Godwin was about Hitler and not Stalin.

[admin]

This has been an interesting and enjoyable debate so far conducted with much better manners than many threads but it looks like Godwin's law is about to be proved again (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law)

[wheels]

So, people who believe in traditional standards/discipline etc  (or whatever you want to call it) are "fascists". That really is below the belt and quite pathetic. Can't you do any better? And, since when did task orientation become linked to Fascism? Have you never heard of Stalin's Five-Year Plans?

I always find that people who use the word traditional take traditional to mean what they want to mean. So who's traditional standards are we talking about are we talking about Victorian values here, the traditional values I was subject to in the 50s or the values of the 80's. It's a word that means nothing other than to the the person using it.

[simonesaffron]

So, people who believe in traditional standards/discipline etc  (or whatever you want to call it) are "fascists". That really is below the belt and quite pathetic. Can't you do any better? And, since when did task orientation become linked to Fascism? Have you never heard of Stalin's Five-Year Plans?

Just can't figure out your connections here.

[simonesaffron]

Quite an interesting article from the TES here on the very

http://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=6133916

Interesting article Elpram, thanks for posting it.

I was trying to remember where the "Nuhope" fad started and I was reminded by the article. It was of course in the United States Charter Schools. I think at the time it was thought to be a bit of a cult and an extension of the Zero tolerance scheme for criminals. I think I also remember reading (not in your article) that several of these schools were burnt down to the ground by their own pupils.   

I thought the comments of the Headteacher from Derby summed it up when he said..."There are far better ways to start the day than with conflict, with nagging, I would rather Teachers were talking to pupils about education than whether their tie is straight." 

I think the fact that a very tiny minority of schools in the UK have adopted this American policy speaks for itself.         

[Bowden Guy]

So, people who believe in traditional standards/discipline etc  (or whatever you want to call it) are "fascists". That really is below the belt and quite pathetic. Can't you do any better? And, since when did task orientation become linked to Fascism? Have you never heard of Stalin's Five-Year Plans?

[simonesaffron]

"Trollop", it is many a year since I have heard that word. It is certainly a curious term to apply as a description to a child.

Anyway, sincere though they may be Miss C & Marplemum, histrionic, repetitive assertions that are reminiscent of cheap politicians ..."utter rubbish...utter rubbish"...will not alter the reality.

What we really need to do for our children in Marple is to take some responsibility and encourage/promote them to a situation where they are able to engage in a meaningful educational/life experience with the adults (in this case their Teachers) they are growing up with. What we do not need is to lower our standards and relegate our kids unwillingly into Victorian/Gove type disciplinarian, measures that relegate them to the status of fearful prisoners and bring them ..."on task...", what an awful cliched expression that has its origins in fascism.

I am pleased to say that this has been recognised hence the forthcoming changes that I have previously referred to. 

Just In finality, this is a speculative intertwaddle site not 22b Baker St. We do not have an obligation to provide "evidence". Posters/readers either accept what is written or they don't, it is entirely up to them. You will find on here that very often claims, some of them seemingly outrageous at the onset, evolve into absolute facts at the finish, when in retrospect they had their source in flimsy rumour. Often in the past I have doubted a seemingly, outrageous statement only to find that it comes to fruition as the weeks/days/months go by. It is all to do with some people being closer to situations than others. Neither indignation, contradiction, ignorance, histrionics nor perceived logic goes on to  disprove the actuality.

It is always worth bearing in mind that things can appear to be one way and turn out to be entirely the other.

[Marplemum]

Simone

What evidence do you have that NUHOPE has 'created more problems than it has solved?'  From my knowledge of the school (via my nephew and niece who are students there)  it would appear that NUHOPE is actually creating an environment in the classroom where children can get on and learn rather than the teacher waste time at the beginning of each lesson providing forgotten equipment etc etc.  Surely that has to be a good thing? Isn't it all about teaching and learning these days?

From a logistical point of view I can understand why NUHOPE wasn't implemented across the school straight away and I think the phased introduction is far more sensible. I bet by the end of the year the whole school is following NUHOPE.

[elpram]

My Y9 daughter reports that NUHOPEs are doing brisk business in the first week of the application to her year group (only N and U at the moment!) and apparently they were told that they would be the "worst" year group to be subjected to NUHOPE 

I thought the TES article was quite pertinent given that like Marple Hall, the school mentioned is not an inner city den of depravation and if the figures from the anonymous post implementation survey are accurate, it was an almost evangelical conversion to NUHOPE! Let's give it to the year end at least and see if opinions here mirror those in Tameside 

[Miss C]

Utter rubbish Simone. Utter rubbish. That is all. It's not just year 7 for a start; it's 7,8,9 which means that in September  all but year 11 will be under NUHOPE. And who knows that they won't bring it in for them too? If they were desperately trying to find a way to drop it and keep face I don't think they would have introduced it to other year groups. You can have no evidence of this at all. Plus, why shouldn't 15/16 year oldsbe compliant to not answering back, wearing uniform and not looking like a trollop, doing homework properly, being on task and paying attention in lessons, being on time and having the equipment they need. How on earth can you have a problem with that? Or are you suggesting we should have lower standards for Marple kids?