Local elections

[Duke Fame]

I'm with Duke on this - it is definitely not 'good husbandry'    to use up reserves on recurrent spending, and I suspect the DCLG takes a dim view of councils that do that to any significant extent.  

Contrary to Duke's assumption, I'm not a supporter of Manchester City Council.  My reason for taking issue with Duke is simply because someone needs to challenge his long-standing lazy practice of copying and pasting out-of-date and unverified information off the internet, and passing it off as fact.  

That said, having lived in Greater Manchester for nigh on 50 years, I have seen a total transformation  take place in the city in that time.  The IRA helped, of course, when they bombed the Arndale Centre in 1996.  But look at what Manchester now has to its credit - the tram network, the highly successful Commonwealth Games in 2002, the Eastlands and Hulme developments, the Bridgewater Hall, the growth of the Northern Quarter, repopulation of the city centre, the construction of visionary buildings such as Urbis and the Beetham Tower, the three great universities, two world class football clubs, two great orchestras and a fine array of galleries, museums and theatres.  It wasn't like that when I came here as a student all those years ago.  And yes I know a lot of what has been achieved has been down to private sector investment, but it was also the City Council which had the vision and the energy to make it happen during a period when some other regional cities were stagnating.  

Dave, we have some agreement.

However, my long standing rant about unnecessary jobs still stands, the roles listed still exist and this is happening whilst they are playing politic at the expense of people's jobs.

I can't say i share your interest in the Urbis buliding and the Beetham Tower, to me they are uninspiring although one is quite tall.

However, i do agree that Manchester has enjoyed a recovery when compared with say Liverpool or Birmingham. Like all real cities, Manchester was built on trade and it's success is all down to trade and capitalism, it's failure and decline, caused in no small part by Marxism which pushed trade away. In some cases, the local authority has been helpful in this but I suspect it's recovery is more down to the two football clubs and the commonwealth games rather than much else.

Compare though with smaller provincial towns, Manchester has performed badly and it is perhaps telling that towns that have consistently had strong economies and high employment have had Tory / Lib Dem local authorities.

[tonysheldon]

I'm with Duke on this - it is definitely not 'good husbandry'    to use up reserves on recurrent spending, and I suspect the DCLG takes a dim view of councils that do that to any significant extent.  

Contrary to Duke's assumption, I'm not a supporter of Manchester City Council.  My reason for taking issue with Duke is simply because someone needs to challenge his long-standing lazy practice of copying and pasting out-of-date and unverified information off the internet, and passing it off as fact.  

That said, having lived in Greater Manchester for nigh on 50 years, I have seen a total transformation  take place in the city in that time.  The IRA helped, of course, when they bombed the Arndale Centre in 1996.  But look at what Manchester now has to its credit - the tram network, the highly successful Commonwealth Games in 2002, the Eastlands and Hulme developments, the Bridgewater Hall, the growth of the Northern Quarter, repopulation of the city centre, the construction of visionary buildings such as Urbis and the Beetham Tower, the three great universities, two world class football clubs, two great orchestras and a fine array of galleries, museums and theatres.  It wasn't like that when I came here as a student all those years ago.  And yes I know a lot of what has been achieved has been down to private sector investment, but it was also the City Council which had the vision and the energy to make it happen during a period when some other regional cities were stagnating.  

Absolutely, it's so easy for idealogical right-wingers to slag off Councils for progressive policies they don't happen to agree with.  Manchester is indeed a city to be proud of (and with a fine radical history). It's now a Tory and Liberal-free Council too. Hurrah!  

[Dave]

Duke has one point Dave in that Manchester City Councils reserves are so vast it would only have taken a tiny proportion of them to be used  to save all the jobs and services they have cut.

I don't think the council should be committing to pay out more than it takes in, even if there are reserves.

I'm with Duke on this - it is definitely not 'good husbandry'    to use up reserves on recurrent spending, and I suspect the DCLG takes a dim view of councils that do that to any significant extent. 

Contrary to Duke's assumption, I'm not a supporter of Manchester City Council.  My reason for taking issue with Duke is simply because someone needs to challenge his long-standing lazy practice of copying and pasting out-of-date and unverified information off the internet, and passing it off as fact.   

That said, having lived in Greater Manchester for nigh on 50 years, I have seen a total transformation  take place in the city in that time.  The IRA helped, of course, when they bombed the Arndale Centre in 1996.  But look at what Manchester now has to its credit - the tram network, the highly successful Commonwealth Games in 2002, the Eastlands and Hulme developments, the Bridgewater Hall, the growth of the Northern Quarter, repopulation of the city centre, the construction of visionary buildings such as Urbis and the Beetham Tower, the three great universities, two world class football clubs, two great orchestras and a fine array of galleries, museums and theatres.  It wasn't like that when I came here as a student all those years ago.  And yes I know a lot of what has been achieved has been down to private sector investment, but it was also the City Council which had the vision and the energy to make it happen during a period when some other regional cities were stagnating. 

[Duke Fame]

Duke has one point Dave in that Manchester City Councils reserves are so vast it would only have taken a tiny proportion of them to be used  to save all the jobs and services they have cut. In that respect Labour run Manchester are playing politics with peoples jobs and services. The fact is services have been cut and jobs lost in Manchester that need not have been.

It appears to me that Stockport have husbanded   their finances much better. How long have I been waiting to say
 that.

I don't think the council should be committing to pay out more than it takes in, even if there are reserves. The problem for me is that they clearly are playing politics with peoples jobs and services when they are still prioritising non-essential services over what most would consider worthy council services.  It seems to me like someone crying poverty and starving when they still take a 2 week foreign holiday every year.

(I know realise why you support 'professional' local politics Wheels, turkeys and Christmas   )

[wheels]

Duke has one point Dave in that Manchester City Councils reserves are so vast it would only have taken a tiny proportion of them to be used  to save all the jobs and services they have cut. In that respect Labour run Manchester are playing politics with peoples jobs and services. The fact is services have been cut and jobs lost in Manchester that need not have been.

It appears to me that Stockport have husbanded  their finances much better. How long have I been waiting to say
 that.

[Duke Fame]

If Duke had written that Manchester City Council 'helps to pay' for the NFLA there would have been no problem at all with that.  But as he so often does, he set out deliberately to mislead.

Meanwhile, we still await Duke's examples of real, current hey-nonny-nonny jobs which have been kept on while 'libraries, lollipop ladies and libraries' have been closed.     But we're not holding our breath.........   

You are splitting hairs because you are trying to defend a local council and tow clerk that is happy to play politics with people's jobs whilst wasting money. I stated that it is a net cost to manchester town council to finance, what is a very stupid and unnecessary  job.   

Meanwhile, 'we' don't need to wait because the Duke has  already answered the question. As I said, a quick look on manchester local council website tells you they are still current roles. One of which is arguably a positive role with some merit, why not work out which one it is.

Dave, you are in a corner, the Liebour council and it's town clerk are a disgrace, why don't you admit it and we can all ensure the UK is foes not vote for such a hideous incompetent lying bunch ever again.

[Dave]

You do 'help' to pay for the national trust as does Manchester town council with the nuke free sectretariat,

If Duke had written that Manchester City Council 'helps to pay' for the NFLA there would have been no problem at all with that.  But as he so often does, he set out deliberately to mislead.

Meanwhile, we still await Duke's examples of real, current hey-nonny-nonny jobs which have been kept on while 'libraries, lollipop ladies and libraries' have been closed.     But we're not holding our breath.........   

[Duke Fame]

Dave correct on this Duke. And even if he wasn't surely the services your pointing your finger at are good things that your beloved private sector would never pick up the costs of.

There are a few good cases where the market cannot deliver services in a way that would be seen as perfect. Street lighting, pavements, street cleaning etc.

In some cases, the market provides services in an excellent way. One of which would be an Alicia Keys concert, if one likes Alicia Keys, one can buy a ticket. It is a service that is does not need state intervention unless the town clerk wants to appear important and needs to surround himself with labour Councillors, D list celebs and spend all the money that they'd have usually spent on Lollipop ladies, libraries and stuff.

However, in some cases, the market does not provide the service because it simply is not needed, a waste, an indulgence. I'd put the Nuclear free secretariat in that list, a pointless job created in order to give some unemployable bod a job. Going back to the council I used to live under 'down south' one that has one of the lowest central subsidies in the country, that wasn't a subscriber to the nuke free councils despite having the largest atomic weapons plant on it's doorstep.

It's nonsense Wheels, it's a case of local councils stealing money of the taxpayer to make their empire bigger. Stupidity.

[sgk]

...I happen to be a member of the National Trust, but I don't 'finance' it.

About 30% of the National Trust's income comes from membership charges, so probably fair to say you 'finance' it !

[Duke Fame]

Duke should be ashamed of using such deliberately misleading language.  Manchester City Council does not 'finance' NFLA in any sense except that it is a member, along with many other local authorities.  Similarly, I happen to be a member of the National Trust, but I don't 'finance' it.

NFLA staff are not employees of Manchester City Council.  It is therefore complete nonsense to suggest that a job with NFLA is a 'ridiculous role within the council', just because NFLA happens to rent a room in Manchester Town Hall. 

Come on Duke, either give us some honesty and hard evidence, or stick to selling frilly knickers.   

You do 'help' to pay for the national trust as does Manchester town council with the nuke free sectretariat, t pays twerp this useless role going.

[wheels]

Dave correct on this Duke. And even if he wasn't surely the services your pointing your finger at are good things that your beloved private sector would never pick up the costs of.

[Dave]

Manchester finances the nuke free secretariat along with other hey nonny nonny wasteful councils.

Duke should be ashamed of using such deliberately misleading language.  Manchester City Council does not 'finance' NFLA in any sense except that it is a member, along with many other local authorities.  Similarly, I happen to be a member of the National Trust, but I don't 'finance' it.

NFLA staff are not employees of Manchester City Council.  It is therefore complete nonsense to suggest that a job with NFLA is a 'ridiculous role within the council', just because NFLA happens to rent a room in Manchester Town Hall. 

Come on Duke, either give us some honesty and hard evidence, or stick to selling frilly knickers.   

[Duke Fame]

Duke has no evidence for that - he's just peddling the same old bluff and bluster! 

And as far as I can recall, even two years ago it was pretty unconvincing stuff.  For example, I think I may have pointed out at the time that the 'Nuclear Free Local Secretariat & Policy and Research Officers' weren't employed by Manchester City Council at all, but by an organisation called Nuclear Free Local Authorities, which rents an office in Manchester Town Hall, thus providing a small income to help the hard-pressed council tax payers of Manchester.

But why let mere facts get in the way of a good rant!   

Duke does, Duke just looked at Manchester councils website. Manchester finances the nuke free secretariat along with other hey nonny nonny wasteful councils. It's a net spend and cost to the tax payer, furthermore, as all these councils are subsidised centrally, this waste is costing you & I (ok maybe not you Dave)

[Dave]

The problem is that all those roles are still active today.

Duke has no evidence for that - he's just peddling the same old bluff and bluster! 

And as far as I can recall, even two years ago it was pretty unconvincing stuff.  For example, I think I may have pointed out at the time that the 'Nuclear Free Local Secretariat & Policy and Research Officers' weren't employed by Manchester City Council at all, but by an organisation called Nuclear Free Local Authorities, which rents an office in Manchester Town Hall, thus providing a small income to help the hard-pressed council tax payers of Manchester.

But why let mere facts get in the way of a good rant!   

[Duke Fame]

Come on Duke, you can surely do better that trot out this tired old stuff from two years ago:....especially as it was not even original, but copied and pasted from the comments section of the MEN website!

We're not talking about two years ago, we're talking about yesterday, when Duke wrote:  
....and we'd be grateful to be spared any more stuff pinched from rants on other forums! 

It's called efficiency, not re inventing the wheel. The problem is that all those roles are still active today. Added to that is the example of empty property, Alicia Keys jolly up etc etc.

Defending waste in the basis that Liebour have been wasting for years does not make it ok.