Application to add a Sixth Form at Marple Hall School

[Dave]

It's safe to assume that the Cheadle campus of camsfc is moving away from A levels to vocational courses as a direct result of competition from new 6th forms, and maybe the same could happen in Marple, although the circumstances are different here.  For example, I believe Cheadle Hulme High School got a nice juicy capital grant to build a 6th form block with shiny new facilities, whereas nothing like that is on offer at MHS. 

[corium]

However if the focus of the Cheadle campus is moving away from A levels towards more vocational courses, there is not much overlap.

Fair point but remember this wasn't the case when the 6th form was set up, I don't think they could have known about the changes in the college when they planned the 6th form.

[JMC]

Totally agree Henry.

Marple College are (understandably) very against the proposal and feel it would adversely affect their viability.

[Henry01]

Hazel Grove High School has a 6th form.
Poynton High School has a 6th form.
New Mills High School has a 6th form.
Cheadle Hume High School has a 6th form.

Two of those schools are outside the Stockport authority, so can't really be compared. More crucially, not one of those schools has another provider of state 16-18 education a mile away, as Marple Hall would have. The one possible exception is Cheadle Hulme, which has the Cheadle campus of CAMS nearby. However if the focus of the Cheadle campus is moving away from A levels towards more vocational courses, there is not much overlap.

[Dave]

I think hollins is right.  Marple is a town with a population of 23,000, and as others have pointed out, on top of that both the school and the college recruit significant numbers of students from outside the Marple area.  There's room for a 6th form at MHS without damaging the college, and it is good to provide choice to meet the different needs of different youngsters. 

[hollins]

Hazel Grove High School has a 6th form.
Poynton High School has a 6th form.
New Mills High School has a 6th form.
Cheadle Hume High School has a 6th form.

It would seem that plenty of local towns think that high schools with a 6th form are OK. Indeed, several of these are upgrading sixth-form buildings at present.


From the Marple Hall plans (I'm quoting):
- The sixth form will provide Marple Hall School students an additional choice regarding post 16 study. Currently, the choice to stay at their own school is denied to them where as it is open to learners in other schools in Stockport and in schools in neighbouring authorities.
- The admission limit for Year 12 each year will be 120 learners
- When established with both Years 12 and 13, the sixth form will accommodate between 200 and 240 learners
- The sixth form will concentrate on Level 3 ‘A Level’ qualifications
- A Levels will be offered in around 20 subjects such as Mathematics and Further Mathematics, English, Physics, Biology, Chemistry, Geography, History, four Modern Languages, Drama, Music, Art and Design, Media, Food Technology, Design Technology, Business Studies and PE.
- The exact range of subjects taught each year will depend on student numbers and choices
- Initially sixth form facilities will be based within the main school building. There will be no major building project during the start-up years.

I wouldn't have a problem with any of that, and 120 learners per year is not going to put too many dents in the intake of Marple Sixth-Form College or Aquinas.

There's room for everyone.

[Henry01]

Seems obvious now but didn't notice before - 94% is for all qualifications, including AS level which has a higher failure rate. The 98.9% is for the full A level.

Anyway - I stand by what I said. Sixth form colleges on average outperform school sixth forms on success rates by 15%, and we have now seen that the Marple stats are in line with other colleges. I want to continue to have a successful sixth form college in Marple for my own children. No point in having a school sixth form as the college covers all the more 'academic' subjects the school plans to offer. The school should concentrate on what it already does well, and not divert funding away from the earlier year groups.

[Dave]

I suspect the 98.9% figure applies to a particular type or level of qualification.  You can't blame them for wanting to pick out the statistic that shows them in the best possible light!  But I think the success/achievement rates for all qualifications are the most appropriate ones to use.   

[Henry01]

It did take some finding! Interestingly, according to those figures, CAMS and Aquinas both had success of around 84%, exactly in line with the national average for sixth form colleges.

I still don't fully understand where the Skills Funding Agency figures come from if CAMS have given their own figure of 98.9%/100% for achievement.

[Dave]

Just had a look on the Skills Funding Agency website, and extracted the following data for camsfc in 2012/13:

All qualifications, all age groups. Starters: 7,030  Success 84.0%,  Retention 89.3%,  Achievement 94.0%   

It tales some finding, but it's in here:  https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/sfa-national-success-rates-tables-2012-to-2013

[Henry01]

I think 96% must be the college's achievement rate, not its success rate.  (Definitions: achievement rate is the % of students who entered the exam who pass.  Success rate is the % of those students who enrolled who pass.  The success rate is invariably lower than the achievement rate because of dropouts). 

I assumed the 96% was success rate. Not sure where I'd heard it but it was in some college literature. The college website says their A level pass rate was 98.9% (with vocational courses at 100%), which must therefore be the achievement rate.

[Dave]

Don't forget that is an average success rate for all sixth form colleges. According to the college themselves, Marple success rates have been 96% for the last three years.

I think 96% must be the college's achievement rate, not its success rate.  (Definitions: achievement rate is the % of students who entered the exam who pass.  Success rate is the % of those students who enrolled who pass.  The success rate is invariably lower than the achievement rate because of dropouts). 

I do think that regardless of where you are studying, if you are showing signs of dropping out in the middle of a course, it would be very difficult to switch to another one in the same academic year in order to boost success rates.

Don't forget these are two-year courses.  When students switch from A levels to BTECS it's often at the end of year 1. 

[Henry01]

Not entirely impressed by the percentage success rates.

Don't forget that is an average success rate for all sixth form colleges. According to the college themselves, Marple success rates have been 96% for the last three years.

It's important to take all education data (e.g. retention, achievement, success) with a generous pinch of salt.  Sixth form college success rates tend to be higher than school sixth forms because the colleges are more likely to offer less demanding 'vocational' qualifications, such as BTEC National Diplomas.  And if a college student is struggling with their A levels and shows signs of dropping out, they can be switched ti a BTEC, and if they complete their time at college and pass, it still counts as a 'success'.

In schools, if an A level student is having difficulty, it can be more difficult to provide an easier option, so they are more likely to drop out completely.

I get your point about vocational courses. However I do think that regardless of where you are studying, if you are showing signs of dropping out in the middle of a course, it would be very difficult to switch to another one in the same academic year in order to boost success rates. Anyway, Stockport Academy sixth form offers BTEC courses.

[Dave]

It's important to take all education data (e.g. retention, achievement, success) with a generous pinch of salt.  Sixth form college success rates tend to be higher than school sixth forms because the colleges are more likely to offer less demanding 'vocational' qualifications, such as BTEC National Diplomas.  And if a college student is struggling with their A levels and shows signs of dropping out, they can be switched ti a BTEC, and if they complete their time at college and pass, it still counts as a 'success'.

In schools, if an A level student is having difficulty, it can be more difficult to provide an easier option, so they are more likely to drop out completely.

[My login is Henrietta]

I have said this before in other posts but I feel it is worth repeating.

I have always thought Marple is very fortunate to have a sixth form college. They do a lot with less funding:

Funding per student in sixth form colleges: £4601 - success rates are 84%
Funding per student in secondary school sixth forms: £5620 - success rates are 69%
Funding per student in secondary academies: £7880

On top of this, the college appears to be more settled, with the grade 2 Ofsted etc. I would never want my own children to go to a school sixth form (especially an untested one) when I am lucky enough to have a sixth form college on my doorstep.

Not entirely impressed by the percentage success rates.