Rail fares

[Duke Fame]

This is confusing even for you Duke. You seem to be saying you want higher fares to help Marple's economy the aim being I assume to restrict the number of people leaving the suburb of Marple and at the same time making proposals to increase the number of trains taking people away by using light rail?

2 issues wheels. I made two points so thought I'd cover both. They don't need to be connected.

[Dave]

Would that be since the number of trains from/through Marple was reduced to allow more to go to Rose Hill? Would be interested if anyone knows the total from both stations.

AFAIK the total number of trains between Marple/Rose Hill and Piccadilly has remained more or less unchanged  - the extra trains from Rose Hill were simply switched from Marple, which used to have three trains per hour and now has only two. 

I seem to recall that when this change took place a couple of years ago, our councillors eagerly sent round newsletters trumpeting their success in gaining 'extra trains for Rose Hill', without ever mentioning that they had simply been switched from Marple (as if we hadn't noticed!)   

[wheels]

This is confusing even for you Duke. You seem to be saying you want higher fares to help Marple's economy the aim being I assume to restrict the number of people leaving the suburb of Marple and at the same time making proposals to increase the number of trains taking people away by using light rail?

[Duke Fame]

I think you need to explain this one Duke. Rose Hill station has gone from strength to strength over the past few years, with passenger numbers increasing significantly. I used the station on Thursday and virtually all the parking spaces were full. Fantastic - all those cars off the road! In complete contrast to a few years ago, when I used to use the service and it was clearly the cinderella of the GM services.

If only Northern Rail would see the sense of putting on a couple more evening trains, as I've always suspected that this simple thing is holding the route back. For anyone who regulalrly commutes, but with the potential for the odd late graft or post work beer, the lack of trains after 6.30 is a real issue.

Whilst Northern Trains are not the greatest and we are still lumbered with shocking rolling stock, they are still light years ahead of their former incumbents "First North Western" who used to provide an absolute apology of a service.

I think it will help the local economy of Marple if travel to manchester is dearer.

On closing Rose Hill. It's expensive to maintain two stations. If it were me, I'd look at running a light rail to Manc from Marple & New Mills with heavy rail just making the scenic trip from New Mills to Sheff. we can see more services into Manchester by avoiding the Picadilly bottleneck and run light rail away from ht mainline. Surely a shuttle bus around Marple to meed the light rail will take more cars off the road. Rose Hill land and the track bed can be sold.

[corium]

I think you need to explain this one Duke. Rose Hill station has gone from strength to strength over the past few years, with passenger numbers increasing significantly.

Would that be since the number of trains from/through Marple was reduced to allow more to go to Rose Hill? Would be interested if anyone knows the total from both stations.

I do agree with the comment re evening trains, currently just not a realistic proposition but can't see the number increasing unless the service fragments between the two stations even more & this is unlikely given the later trains to Marple also serve New Mills

[Belly]

Should help the local economy.

The obvious thing in marple is to close rose hill

I think you need to explain this one Duke. Rose Hill station has gone from strength to strength over the past few years, with passenger numbers increasing significantly. I used the station on Thursday and virtually all the parking spaces were full. Fantastic - all those cars off the road! In complete contrast to a few years ago, when I used to use the service and it was clearly the cinderella of the GM services.

If only Northern Rail would see the sense of putting on a couple more evening trains, as I've always suspected that this simple thing is holding the route back. For anyone who regulalrly commutes, but with the potential for the odd late graft or post work beer, the lack of trains after 6.30 is a real issue.

Whilst Northern Trains are not the greatest and we are still lumbered with shocking rolling stock, they are still light years ahead of their former incumbents "First North Western" who used to provide an absolute apology of a service.

[Duke Fame]

It is Christmas already for Stagecoach and High Peak bus (and outside our area the Manchester to Ashton yellow cattle trucks). Rose Hill to Manchester up from £3.90 to £6.30 with similar increases throughout Greater Manchester. Stagecoach Dayrider £4.00. Just how many shoppers will vote with their feet?

Should help the local economy.

The obvious thing in marple is to close rose hill

[marplerambler]

It is Christmas already for Stagecoach and High Peak bus (and outside our area the Manchester to Ashton yellow cattle trucks). Rose Hill to Manchester up from £3.90 to £6.30 with similar increases throughout Greater Manchester. Stagecoach Dayrider £4.00. Just how many shoppers will vote with their feet?

[marplerambler]

Northern Rail is such a laughably inefficient organisation - have you ever noticed the number of 'revenue protection' staff hanging around on the platforms at Piccadilly?  Some days there are eight or nine of them, just standing around chatting to each other!   

Similarly, have you noticed how many 'revenue collection' officers' there are when you disembark at all stations other than Piccadilly or when you return to Rose Hill later in the day? Absolutely none, so lots of people travel without paying to and from all stations except Manchester if the guard does not check tickets from manned stations and collect fares from unmanned stations such as Woodley, Hyde Cental, Fairfield or Gorton (or Rose Hill later in the day)! Trains without guards are practical only only if you have stations such as those on the London Underground which are impossible to access or leave without having to pass through or very conspicuously jump over turnstiles. Are Northern Trains prepared to invest in the equipment to make it much harder to evade fares at these stations?  What I find bewildering in the evening rush period is the unbelievable number of people who get past the gate staff onto the train at Piccadilly without tickets hoping the guards on the train do not carry out a check. The guards seem to to have a pretty impossible task collecting the unpaid fares in the time available yet they nearly always seem to start checking tickets at the rear of the train but those trying to evade the fare especially if they are getting off before Woodley sit or stand at the front of the train. Occasionally you will see the guard checking tickets by starting at the front and get no further back than issuing tickets to those on the first few front seats because so few have paid. When the guard walks to the front of the train first you then see an attempt at mass migration to the rear carriage which can be quite comical when the train is already jam packed. TfGM and train companies should introduce an Oystercard swipe system which means that all passengers have to pass through a turnstile at every station and Northern Rail should get their priorities right and instead of taking an easy option of punishing the honest fare payer travelling after 9.30 should concentrate on cracking down on those who very deliberately attempt to evade fares. It isn't fare paying off-peak passengers who make a line unprofitable - it is fare evaders and an inefficient train operating company.

[Dave]

I agree with ringi - the trains are grossly overcrowded at peak times, including the late afternoon trains out of Piccadilly, so it's reasonable to charge a peak-time fare then to encourage people (such as shoppers), who don't have to travel at that time, to come home earlier or later. But I don't see why the peak fare should be charged for a train going IN to Piccadilly at, say 5 pm, as that train will be almost empty.

The real issue, though, is that no-one should be paying a penny more for the disgraceful train service we get at Marple and Rose Hill.  As marplerambler rightly said, we have been singled out to suffer the worst trains in the country - they are cramped, noisy, uncomfortable and unreliable.  And yet this is one of the most highly subsidised services in the UK. Not surprising, I guess, as  Northern Rail is such a laughably inefficient organisation - have you ever noticed the number of 'revenue protection' staff hanging around on the platforms at Piccadilly?  Some days there are eight or nine of them, just standing around chatting to each other!   

[ringi]

The charges must cover the cost of providing enough trains for the peak time demand; however these trains are then empty for most of the day.   So why not fill them up with people that would not have chosen to travel at full price?

The peak ticket cost of the train into Manchester is less than the cost of parking all day in most car parks in Manchester; therefore I don’t think people are driving to work due to the cost of rail tickets.    It  is more to do with offices being built outside of the town center, and people not wishing to walk from the station to work, or sit in a train with other people.

However at off-peat time, my wife could decide to shop in Manchester or to drive else where to shop, so having a lower cost may get more usage.  (I am not into shopping!)

[Melancholyflower]

I agree with this for trains going from Manchester to Marple in the late afternoon, as coming up to Christmas often all the seats taken with many people on cheap fares sitting while workers that paid full fair are having to stand.

Classic divide and rule strategy. Gets people away from the real ethics of the issue, which is why there should be a peak / off peak price structure at all. The whole principle is grossly unfair on commuters who choose to take the train instead of lone drivers polluting the atmosphere.  Rather like charging people extra to go on holiday in the school holidays.

[ringi]

I agree with this for trains going from Manchester to Marple in the late afternoon, as coming up to Christmas often all the seats taken with many people on cheap fares sitting while workers that paid full fair are having to stand.

However I don’t see way the trains into Manchester cannot remain as off-peak in the late afternoon as they are mostly empty.

[Victor M]

Equally it brings us into line with the rest of the country.

Not quite, in the London area the evening peak time only effects trains leaving London, those traveling into London are still off peak.

[corium]

Equally it brings us into line with the rest of the country.

No, it brings us into line with parts of the country e.g. Milton Keynes - Manchester is off peak, ditto Brighton to Hastings (both journeys I've done recently). Big issue in this house will be whether to take the train or drive the car into Manchester for evening events