Road deaths

[My login is Henrietta]

I can see Henrietta's point, though maybe she over-eggs the pudding a bit!  But the way occasional groups of weekend cyclists form a 'peloton' and block one carriageway of a road, with no thought to allowing other traffic to pass safely, is blatantly selfish and anti-social, and also potentially dangerous.

Marpleexile writes  
....but tractor drivers are normally (a) going for a short distance, often just a few hundred yards, and (b) often very considerate, ready to pull over to allow other vehicles to pass, unlike the 'peloton'. 

rsh writes:
....but canal towpaths are not intended for cyclists, they are intended for horses and pedestrians.  And the Peak Forest towpath is a good place to witness another form of anti-social behaviour by cyclists, who sometimes ride much too fast and seem to expect walkers to step aside and flatten themselves into the hedge as they shoot past! 

To clarify this, only horses towing narrow boats are allowed on the tow path. Ridden horses are forbidden. (Yes, I think it's odd too, as did the British Waterways man when I queried it many years ago.)

[Victor M]

My perception is also that less horse riders use the New Mills - Bugsworth/Whaley section of the canal than Marple-Romiley.

Surprising as it may sound but Horses (apart from those pulling barges) are banned from the canal towpath

[Melancholyflower]

On the matter of surfacing, I support rsh in advocating more funding for improving the towpaths and the Middlewood Way, which is disgraceful in parts. A textbook example is the excellent quality surface of the Fallowfield Loop old railway line.

Whether this will happen is another matter. A lot of horse riders use Middlewood and without being an expert on the subject, I imagine they prefer riding on softer surfaces than Tarmac, say. Same for towpaths presumably.

My perception is also that less horse riders use the New Mills - Bugsworth/Whaley section of the canal than Marple-Romiley.

I do come across discourteous cyclists though and provide feedback wherever necessary!

[rsh]

Given the normal width of a canal towpath, most people will 'take up the whole width' on their own!  I don't know about others, but I normally step aside in good time and allow cyclists to pass, if I know they are there and, crucially, if they approach at a considerate and safe speed.  But if someone comes riding towards me like a bat out of hell I remain the the middle of the path until he (and the speed maniacs are invariably male) slows down. 

I walk and cycle the Peak Forest all the time (with good use of a bell!) and funnily enough even on a bike myself I have the occasional grievance with other people passing on bikes without slowing down or moving to one side, presuming I'll move up onto the grass (not always a good idea where the towpath suddenly disappears). I can tell how some walkers feel by the very clear and sincere "thank you" you get for using a bell in good time! (You're welcome )

About the width/suitability for cycling, that's the point: the towpath IS used by cyclists, they're probably only going to increase, it provides a vital bypass for the horrible roads either side, so the modest amount of money it'd take to make it more suitable (widening, resurfacing to make the most of the towpath's width) would be well-spent and appreciated by all - you wouldn't have to step into a hedge or into the mud just to let someone pass! The towpath beyond New Mills as far as Bugsworth is perfect and puts Marple to shame (apparently improved with funding from the Derbyshire Regional Development Fund).

About the "peloton" - it does depend on the road. If you have two or more cyclists riding as a line, single file along the edge of a narrow road, it probably makes it more difficult and dangerous to pass because they will take that much longer to get past. In that case, it could be better to ride side-by-side and make vehicles behind overtake properly rather than squeezing past.

[Dave]

Or the number of people walking on the canal towpath who think it is all right to take up the whole width without giving any thought to those behind them who may be traveling faster than they are.

Given the normal width of a canal towpath, most people will 'take up the whole width' on their own!  I don't know about others, but I normally step aside in good time and allow cyclists to pass, if I know they are there and, crucially, if they approach at a considerate and safe speed.  But if someone comes riding towards me like a bat out of hell I remain the the middle of the path until he (and the speed maniacs are invariably male) slows down. 

[Victor M]

Next Thursday is cycle to work day, hopefully there will be lots of people cycling to work for the first time, please as a motorist be extra considerate, give them space when (or in the case of Stockport/Marple Road) if you overtake them and please be aware that if you do overtake a cyclist don't be surprised if within two minutes he's back in your rear view mirror overtaking you. Also do check your left hand mirror before turning left and always signal, at least then I will have some idea of where you are going (especially when turning left)

As with all discussions there are always two sides here are my views on some of the posts.

You forgot to mention that whilst most cyclists on the footpath don't seem to have have a bell they assume walkers have a detection system that can detect them coming up silently from behind

Or the number of people walking on the canal towpath who think it is all right to take up the whole width without giving any thought to those behind them who may be traveling faster than they are.

Personally I think one of the best ways to avoid these problems of unsuitable roads is to provide AND maintain suitable alternative off-road routes. Just two examples: We have Middlewood Way which is an excellent cut-through to the A6 and large parts of Cheshire,

Unfortunately the Middlewood way is an off-road route only suitable for off-road bikes, it isn't designed as a commuter cycle route, and is a useless cut-through to the A6 for anyone cycling to Stockport.

I would seriously consider banning cyclists from public roads, for their own safety.   

People cycle for two reasons, one as a mode of transport to get to and from work. (It is far quicker to get to Stockport by bike than any other form of transport during the rush hour) all it needs is some motorists to be a bit more considerate As a regular cyclist I see far more inconsiderate motorists than cycles. How many times do you see cars stationary in the designated cycle area at the front of junctions, far more than you see cyclists on pavements. That area is provided to allow cyclists to get to the front of junctions where that are safest and can be seen by all motorists. The second reason is for pleasure and exercise.

And as for a Road Fund License for cyclists. Again, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea, but why only cyclists? Why not make all road users pay a road fund license?

There isn't anything called a road fund license, it is actually a Vehicle Emissions Duty, based on how much pollution the vehicle emits, cyclists don't emit any pollution so therefore don't pay any tax.

[Dave]

As a result I can fully understand why cyclists use towpaths rather than roads, though I appreciate they can be dangerous to walkers.

  I don't think there's a problem with cyclists on towpaths as long as they slow down for walkers, but unfortunately a significant proportion of  them don't.   

[Melancholyflower]

One can't tar all cyclists with the same brush, just as one can't tar all motorists with the same brush.
As both are human beings, errors will always occur and there are naturally a sizeable percentage of idiots in both camps.

Cyclists are perhaps easier to target because there is no official licence which assesses rider proficiency, whereas all motorists have at some point had to drive safely to get their qualifications. Common sense is the biggest factor however.

In my view the biggest issue of all is the poor state of repair of the roads. As Marpleexile pointed out there are many boobytraps that motorists notice less (because of the good suspension of their vehicles) or not at all, but that cyclists ignore at their peril. I used to cycle from Reddish to Ancoats every day using the A6. Regular obstacles included dangerous potholes, parked cars in cycle lanes, broken glass, nails, sunken grates.   That's aside from bad driving and motorists who never noticed you and cut you up.

As a result I can fully understand why cyclists use towpaths rather than roads, though I appreciate they can be dangerous to walkers. They're not altogether friendly to cyclists though - I had a double puncture on the Peak Forest canal last year because the authorities didn't clean up thorns when they prune the undergrowth.

Using a bell is, as Dave says, more polite, but it is also carries a more distinctive frequency to alert people.

[Dave]

I've never understood why it's recommended that we have a bell on a bicycle. I'm not a regular cyclist but I can shout ten times louder than any bell should I need to warn someone.

True enough, but a bell is more polite than SHOUTING!   

[tonyjones]

The canal towpath, certainly from Brabyn's Brown to the aqueduct, is heavily used by people on foot.

Walkers, couples and small groups,
Families out for an afternoon walk, with small children, pushchairs, dogs, and grandparents,
Dogwalkers with dogs running loose.

And then you get these !"£$%$%^% people on bicycles who come along peddling for all they are worth expecting everyone to get out of their way, there are a few who do have some sense of fair play.

I look forward to seeing one end up in the canal !

[Howard]

You forgot to mention that whilst most cyclists on the footpath don't seem to have have a bell they assume walkers have a detection system that can detect them coming up silently from behind

I've never understood why it's recommended that we have a bell on a bicycle. I'm not a regular cyclist but I can shout ten times louder than any bell should I need to warn someone.

[corium]

rsh writes:
....but canal towpaths are not intended for cyclists, they are intended for horses and pedestrians.  And the Peak Forest towpath is a good place to witness another form of anti-social behaviour by cyclists, who sometimes ride much too fast and seem to expect walkers to step aside and flatten themselves into the hedge as they shoot past! 

You forgot to mention that whilst most cyclists on the footpath don't seem to have have a bell they assume walkers have a detection system that can detect them coming up silently from behind

[Dave]

I can see Henrietta's point, though maybe she over-eggs the pudding a bit!  But the way occasional groups of weekend cyclists form a 'peloton' and block one carriageway of a road, with no thought to allowing other traffic to pass safely, is blatantly selfish and anti-social, and also potentially dangerous.

Marpleexile writes

it is an odd phenomenon that causes some people to get irrationally irate at being held up by a cyclist, but to merely get a bit miffed at a tractor or similar slow moving motor vehicle.

....but tractor drivers are normally (a) going for a short distance, often just a few hundred yards, and (b) often very considerate, ready to pull over to allow other vehicles to pass, unlike the 'peloton'. 

rsh writes:

the Peak Forest Canal is perfect to avoid Strines Rd and the A6, but the towpath is too often a narrow and uneven wasted opportunity.

....but canal towpaths are not intended for cyclists, they are intended for horses and pedestrians.  And the Peak Forest towpath is a good place to witness another form of anti-social behaviour by cyclists, who sometimes ride much too fast and seem to expect walkers to step aside and flatten themselves into the hedge as they shoot past! 

[rsh]

Excellent, balanced and rational post Marpleexile.

Personally I think one of the best ways to avoid these problems of unsuitable roads is to provide AND maintain suitable alternative off-road routes. Just two examples: We have Middlewood Way which is an excellent cut-through to the A6 and large parts of Cheshire, but the Stockport section is an embarrassment of mud and overgrown vegetation. Mnwhile heading south, the Peak Forest Canal is perfect to avoid Strines Rd and the A6, but the towpath is too often a narrow and uneven wasted opportunity.

I do wish there was the same amount of anger written online about our councils and other bodies lack of focus and ambition (or available money!) to build suitable cycling routes, as there is written to simply criticise cyclists doing their best with what is a pretty crap lot.

Maybe also worth pointing out that we have a pretty ancient road network around here, which while built with light traffic such as bikes in mind was never built for such a volume of motor traffic, nor such wide and aggressive 'SUV' type vehicles as many pointlessly insist on driving these days.

[simonesaffron]

Cycling on public roads is one of those things that should be safe.

Unfortunately this is not true but you will never convince cyclists of this. I have known several cyclists in my life and nearly all of them have had at least one serious accident but every single one of them got back on their bike as soon as they were able. Cyclists are rational, intelligent people on most subjects, except one - cycling. When it comes to that subject they are all crazy!

I am thankful that my children showed no interest at all in cycling and if they had done then they simply would not have been allowed to have a bicycle. I have never actually had a collision with a cyclist whilst driving and I don't want one, but I have had a few close calls. I don't know if these were my fault or the cyclist's fault or a bit of both to me it doesn't really matter.

The thought of my grandchildren riding a bicycle on a public road fills me with all kinds of anxieties.

I would seriously consider banning cyclists from public roads, for their own safety.