Hazel Grove - General Political Discussion

[Dave]

As I wrote previously:

Well, you can believe Duke or you can believe the National Audit Office. I think I know which one I believe!
http://www.nao.org.uk/report/the-impact-funding-reductions-local-authorities/

Meanwhile, as the season of peace on earth and good will to all men is upon us, can I suggest a Christmas truce? Duke, Bowden Guy, wheels, simone, marplerambler, Andy,  me, and anyone else who wants to take part, to meet on Arkwright Road rec for a kick about. Ref Admin, of course. We will leave our rifles and bayonets behind, exchange cigarettes and handshakes, and sing Silent Night.

On Boxing Day hostilities will be resumed, of course.

Happy Christmas!

[Duke Fame]

Just to get the discussion on government funding for local authorities back on track, let's be clear that that's a different issue from total government expenditure,
or indeed from total local authority expenditure, both of which seem to have crept in and confused the issue in some recent posts.

The relevant figure is government grants to local authorities, adjusted for inflation, which the NAO confirms have fallen by just under 40% since 2010.

Dave what you have done is taken the actual figures that completely refute your claim, you've taken some spending off that figure until you've got a figure to back up your claim.

I'd love it if this government had actually got local spending down by 40% with no discernible difference in service but that has not happened

[Duke Fame]

@Duke Fame - Baffled as to what your "beef" could be with recruiting social workers (extremely difficult job, working with some of the most vulnerable members of society) or with foster carers (again, difficult and working with vulnerable young people and actually saving the council money when compared to the costs of institutional care homes)

Sources below, take your pick depending on your politics!

• BBC News: Children in care soar as councils seek more foster parents, 28-Feb-2014
• Guardian : JK Rowling: Isn’t it time we left orphanages to fairytales?, 17-Dec-2014
• Daily Mail : Children in care hits a record high after Baby P, 27-Nov-2014

Not a beef, just saying there are plenty low skill jobs advertised.

[Dave]

Yes it does now, though it used to be more like 40%. But whilst education spending has been protected by the government, other areas of local authority spending have not.

[Bowden Guy]

Yes, Education, which currently accounts for almost half of the Council's expenditure......

[Dave]

I think that's probably because the total LA expenditure includes the spending on schools, which is a separate ring-fenced grant from the DFE, of course, and not included in the DCLG grant to LAs.

[Bowden Guy]

And, yet, the ACTUAL expenditure hasn't gone down by anywhere as much, so, if anyone has an explanation, I would love to hear it.

And, as we can see from the Council's own financial statements, the greatest part of the actual reduction took place under the last Government.

[Dave]

Just to get the discussion on government funding for local authorities back on track, let's be clear that that's a different issue from total government expenditure,
or indeed from total local authority expenditure, both of which seem to have crept in and confused the issue in some recent posts.

The relevant figure is government grants to local authorities, adjusted for inflation, which the NAO confirms have fallen by just under 40% since 2010.

[Bowden Guy]

Marplerambler, your last sentence was the best advocacy for reform of the benefits system that I have ever read. Good stuff.

[marplerambler]

With the greatest degree of respect, you don't have a clue what happened in "Moor End Road" or whether "abuse" or "murder" took place there.

Bowden Guy, thank you for a diplomacy which does you credit and in the dark hours of the night I was only too aware that you are absolutely right, that I had swooped to Duke’s level and that an apology is in order.

Duke’s comment from a while ago about people from the Heatons that

Good god, they'll all have lice

may well have been said with his tongue in his cheek but the patronising attitude of Duke brings back memories about a small minority from Marple who I dealt with during the Thatcher years who found it inconceivable that they should be on the dole and treated the Benefit Office staff as if was the Benefit Office and not Thatcher who were responsible for them being out of work.   Such arrogance is not forgotten and sadly may bring out the worst in others born in other areas of Stockport thinking that Duke is an official spokesman for Marple when he is nothing of the sort.

Simone states

I am continually surprised when in an election taking place in 2015 people refer to Thatcher and Wilson people that have been out office for decades. 

You wouldn’t forget so readily if you had lived in Marple during the Thatcher years, lost your job or left school/university and after a couple years sunk into a despair that no matter how hard you tried that the future in the north of England offered nothing other than a life on benefits or worthless job schemes. Thatcher was the mother of the professional benefit claimants. Pre-Thatcher there was always a small number of work-shy malingers but there was a job for everyone willing to work (with the shortfall in required labour being made up by immigrants). If you did not work without good reason you were looked upon by all in society, rich or poor, as a parasitic malingerer.  The Thatcher years spawned a whole new psychology about unemployment: it was impossible to get an unskilled job because Britain’s manufacturing base had been undermined by a government which rightly or wrongly said ‘No more subsidisation of inefficient British industry, pay unemployment benefits instead, raise unemployment levels to effectively destroy the unions which had been holding the economy to ransom and import goods which can be produced more cheaply and shipped from the other side of the world’. An unfortunate result was that a lifetime on benefits became a norm so when the Tories were eventually kicked out and the economy began to recover life on benefits was seen by some no longer as the norm but as a right and we still have a legacy of people who scream when Polish people who aim to do nothing but work hard for a living come to fill the hotel and catering and agricultural jobs (paying British taxes while they are here) because the local unemployed now say that they will not take the jobs because the hours are too long and that they are better off on benefits.

[admin]

Here are some sums done on the figures provided by @Bowden Guy

Spend £'sK             Compared to 2008-09            Year on Previous Year   
2008-09   321,060            
2009-10   249,209      -71,851      -22.38%             -71,851   -22.38%
2010-11   263,712      -57,348      -17.86%              14,503     5.82%
2011-12   240,814      -80,246      -24.99%             -22,898    -8.68%
2012-13   239,753      -81,307      -25.32%               -1,061    -0.44%
2013-14   234,828      -86,232      -26.86%               -4,925    -2.05%

[Bowden Guy]

For anyone interested in looking at some actual facts about National and Local Government expenditure, here is a link to a very useful website. You can choose which year to look at via the drop-down menu.
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/year_spending_2015UKbt_14bc1n#ukgs302

Interestingly, in 2008-08 total Local Government expenditure was £167.9 billion. In the current year it is budgeted to be £168.6 billion. Yes, inflation will have had an impact in "real terms' but it's hardly a "collapse", is it?

[wheels]

The pair of you are, of course, talking about two very different things, Govt support for local authorities vs total Govt expenditure. Perhaps Wheels will be able to confirm that SMBC has not suffered a 40% decline in its expenditure since the ruling party went into the national Coaltion in 2010?

Well I can't in the office at this time of day but I am aware that we, Stockport, suffered substantially in terms of its settlementas as against the other Greater Manchester Authorities under the previous Government. Our children recieved less support per head in particular.

[Bowden Guy]

I just thought I would take a look at what has actually happened at our local Council over the past few years. Here is the weblink to the section on their website which includes annual Financial Statements for the past 6 financial years.

http://www.stockport.gov.uk/services/councildemocracy/your_council/documentsandfacts/budgetsfinancialmonitoringreports/statementofaccounts

Net Expenditure
2008-09    £321,060K
2009-10    £249,209K
2010-11    £263,712K
2011-12    £240,814K
2012-13    £239,753K
2013-14    £234,828K

[Bowden Guy]

The pair of you are, of course, talking about two very different things, Govt support for local authorities vs total Govt expenditure. Perhaps Wheels will be able to confirm that SMBC has not suffered a 40% decline in its expenditure since the ruling party went into the national Coaltion in 2010?