Tram Train Strategy for Marple to Stockport

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Dave
The Marple route is a designated diversion route and is used by a handful of through services each day. This will increase in the future as higher frequencies are planned. As such it should be included.

The problem as I see it is we have local politicians and prospective ones that have have completly endorsed the tram train plans of TFGM. This will leave the other Marple route using outdated diesel trains and using the slower Hyde route. The other line, probably Rose Hill will have tram trains that will stop at every station and then potentially travel down a bus lane to get under Piccadilly. This will increase journey times. To me this is not progress, we need a integrated approach which only elctrification of both routes to the national system will give us.

I can't see the link to Stockport happening which is only 5 miles by car, so to me that is not relevant.

Enjoying reading all this interesting .

[hatter76]

Dave
The Marple route is a designated diversion route and is used by a handful of through services each day. This will increase in the future as higher frequencies are planned. As such it should be included.

The problem as I see it is we have local politicians and prospective ones that have have completly endorsed the tram train plans of TFGM. This will leave the other Marple route using outdated diesel trains and using the slower Hyde route. The other line, probably Rose Hill will have tram trains that will stop at every station and then potentially travel down a bus lane to get under Piccadilly. This will increase journey times. To me this is not progress, we need a integrated approach which only elctrification of both routes to the national system will give us.

I can't see the link to Stockport happening which is only 5 miles by car, so to me that is not relevant.

[Dave]

I think you will find that electrification of Manchester to Sheffield is firmly on the radar in the next round of government announcements. This should include both of the Marple routes.

My understanding is that the planned electrification of the Manchester to Sheffield line would be an extension of the overhead wires from Hazel Grove through the Hope Valley, and would not involve electrification of the Marple or Rose Hill lines.

[hatter76]

We seemed to have moved off tram-trains onto related topics that are equally valid.  So, I support the idea of electrification (mentioned by MarpleRambler), but trams use a different voltage to Network Rail, so trams are only compatible with diesels.   To be fair to the current government, they have started planning work on trans-pennine electrification again after the Hendy review.   

And if you want to know what goes on at the regular TfGM meetings I can tell you.  Are there any specific questions?

Geoff
I am not sure who in TFGM is advising you but I think you will find that electrification of Manchester to Sheffield is firmly on the radar in the next round of government announcements. This should include both of the Marple routes.

The problem is we are up against lines such as Manchester to Bradford or Leeds to Harrogate who are far more organised and are actively pushing for it to take place. I don't hear any local or national politicians trying to influence the agenda in this respect. In my opinion you should be forming alliances with groups and members right across the whole route including the High Peak and South Yorkshire.

I am sure you are aware the tram trains in Sheffield are dual voltage and can run on either system. To press ahead with a DC electric tram train electrification solution could effectively cut the Marple line off to through traffic once the rest of the route is finally electrified.  In my view this would be an error.

[Dave]

Thanks Geoff - interesting post, and it's good that we have a councillor who is taking a  close interest in these issues, and is keeping people informed via this excellent forum.

Geoff writes:

we do need to do something about the parking around the station and around the Bridge.  Please note that parking is free in these areas, unlike most places in Stockport. 

I think it's very important to distinguish between different types of parking.  When I go shopping in Marple or Marple Bridge I am happy to pay a small charge for the convenience of parking near the shops, and contrary to what Geoff says, the two small car parks in Marple Bridge do have charges.

But when people park at stations to use the train, it is not just for their own convenience - it is just as much for the convenience of others, because it means they are taking their car off the congested roads.  That's why 'park and ride' schemes exist all over the place in subsurban areas, and that is what we should be dong here, because we suffer such severe traffic congestion. 

[CllrGeoffAbell]

Thanks to Dave, wheels, simonesaffron, etc. for their kind words after my last post on this thread. 

We seemed to have moved off tram-trains onto related topics that are equally valid.  So, I support the idea of electrification (mentioned by MarpleRambler), but trams use a different voltage to Network Rail, so trams are only compatible with diesels.   To be fair to the current government, they have started planning work on trans-pennine electrification again after the Hendy review.   

We have here more cars on the road, more people using trains and (whisper it quietly) more cyclists.  (Although not enough of the latter.)

It is hard to get out of Marple, using a car, between 7:30 and 9, certainly quicker by bike or train.  But yes, we do need to do something about the parking around the station and around the Bridge.  Please note that parking is free in these areas, unlike most places in Stockport.  I would like to get all interested parties together to see what we can do.  But be warned; there will be no quick solution that will please everyone!  Even the Rose Hill car park is approaching capacity.

Yes, I WOULD like to see evening and Sunday trains at Rose Hill.  And ultimately a rail service of some sort from Marple to Stockport.
If you have any opinions on this or car parking you've not said, please let me know, here or by email (cllr.geoff.abell@stockport.gov.uk)

I am an active member of Friends of Marple Station.  One of the things we've done is to count the passengers on a particular day, useful in requesting more services.  I can tell you that on that day in Nov, the busiest train was the 7:45 with 142 getting on at Marple to go to Manchester.   If you get that train , now you know why it's so packed!

At then to the least busy stations.  I read the MEN article and I know that lady who heads up the Friends of Reddish South Station.  That is a triumph of hope as they only have 1 train a week, going towards Stalybridge. 

If anyone wants to help with Friends groups, please join us.  For ideas, the odd working day or just a social at the Norfolk Arms.  You'd be very welcome. 
http://www.friendsofmarplestation.co.uk/

And if you want to know what goes on at the regular TfGM meetings I can tell you.  Are there any specific questions?

[simonesaffron]

I've been saying that all along Dave, but most of my "friends" seem to think that I should stay in more.

Anyway, even though maths was never my strong point, surely ( upon review ) you can improve upon having to leave your house at daft -o- clock?   

[Dave]

Piccadilly to Didsbury on the tram (15 minutes ?)

Simone it's 37 minutes!  You need to get out more........ 

[JohnBates]

Hatter has hit the nail on the head when he makes a reference to defunct London rolling stock is now being cascaded to other areas:

The new franchise will use some cascaded stock for a while, but we will be getting brand new diesel and electric units as soon as they are ordered and built, from 2019

Crossrail incorporates 26 miles of tunnel beneath London, it tunnels through a geologically fragile beds of rock and a labyrinth of pre-existing Underground lines. Cost does not seem to be a consideration in London.

You are correct that lots has been invested in London.We certainly need to play catch up. However the Nothern Powerhouse iniative is starting to bear fruit. The interim report on improving cross pennine connectivity is favourable to tunnelling rail and road links. With the 7 mile HS2 Manchester tunnel and possible eastwards extension for the Pennine link we may finally get substantial investment locally.

We also have the A6 MARR being built, Poynton bypass likely to be started soon, funding for study for A6 to Bredbury, Metrolink to Trafford Park, Port Salford etc  So being left to rot seems inaccurate.

[JohnBates]

Are you sure you've got your timetable right Dave? There is a train from Marple @ 7.22 arrives a Piccadilly 7.47. Don't know tram times but they are fairly frequent, every 6 minutes I THINK. Piccadilly to Didsbury on the tram (15 minutes ?) surely you can improve on leaving your house at 6.15 ?

The journey planner suggests this :-  http://www.traveline-northwest.co.uk/journeyplanner/showJourneyDetailsPage.do?rid=1450436161732&hss=GJcJS425628698

07:22   Marple Rail Station    Provider Northern Rail RouteNEW MILLS CENTRAL - MANCHESTER PICCADILLY
Arrive07:34   Reddish North Rail Station
(4m)
   Leave07:34   Reddish North Rail Station    
Arrive07:38   North Reddish, Gorton Road/Ashbrook Lane
 
(31m)
   Leave07:43   North Reddish, Gorton Road/Ashbrook Lane    Service Number42AProvider Stagecoach Manchester RouteReddish - E Didsbury - Rusholme - Manchester
Arrive08:14   East Didsbury, East Didsbury Metrolink Stop
 
(<1m)
   Leave08:14   East Didsbury, East Didsbury Metrolink Stop    
Arrive08:14   East Didsbury, East Didsbury Metrolink Stop

[simonesaffron]

Are you sure you've got your timetable right Dave? There is a train from Marple @ 7.22 arrives a Piccadilly 7.47. Don't know tram times but they are fairly frequent, every 6 minutes I THINK. Piccadilly to Didsbury on the tram (15 minutes ?) surely you can improve on leaving your house at 6.15 ? 

[marplerambler]

One thing I am particularly keen to see is both the Rose Hill & Marple lines electrified. This would solve the capacity issue over night as there are plenty of 4 carriage electric trains being cascaded from the London area over the coming years. They are also around 30 % cheaper to operate and maintain with faster pick up/ braking.

Hatter has hit the nail on the head when he makes a reference to defunct London rolling stock is now being cascaded to other areas: past governments, both left and right, in the early 1970s did not have the political will to invest in the public transport infrastructure of the North West of England. Back in the 1970s Manchester needed a north-south rail link/Picc-Vic tunnel to connect Piccadilly to Victoria to establish Manchester at the centre of the rail network in the North West. A search on Wiki tells me that a two and three quarter mile tunnel was needed (though the true distance on foot or on the Metro cannot be more than a mile) but this tunnel was deemed to be too expensive and was scrapped. Westminster could not care less about the rail network in Manchester in the 1970s and in 2015 one of the new government's very first statements was that despite electoral promises,  it was withdrawing all funding for the Northern Hub (though we did see a later about turn). All Westminster seems to be interested in is a questionable HS2 project which will give Londoners an even faster escape from Manchester or quick access to Heathrow's new runway in the Cheshire countryside.

Crossrail incorporates 26 miles of tunnel beneath London, it tunnels through a geologically fragile beds of rock and a labyrinth of pre-existing Underground lines. Cost does not seem to be a consideration in London.

At the same time we are being left to rot by Cameron in exactly the same way as Thatcher destroyed the North West for more than a decade yet the Conservative Party are the political choice of the Marple electorate.

[marplerambler]

That's a very interesting link from corium - so Marple is the 19th busiest station in Greater Manchester!  Considering what rubbish trains we've got, that quite impressive. 

Another important point is that every other station in Manchester above Rose Hill is served by both evening and Sunday trains (or put another way Rose Hill is the busiest station in Greater Manchester which doesn't have an evening service and Sunday service). Just how much farther up the list would Rose Hill be if it had more than one train in the evening and a Sunday service?

The Sunday Glossop trains did not run for many years but reintroduction has been successful.

It is shameful that Rose Hill should have no Sunday service, that the first Sunday train to Manchester from Marple is not until 1010 and that the frequency of this service is only every two hours when the rolling stock will be sitting unused in the railway sheds. We are being badly let down by TfGM and Northern.

[Dave]

That's a very interesting link from corium - so Marple is the 19th busiest station in Greater Manchester!  Considering what rubbish trains we've got, that quite impressive. 

Thanks for the suggestion, Simone.  I've just looked up timings for Marple to Didsbury by train and tram, arriving by 8.15.  I would have to catch the 06.37 train from Marple.   I live much more than ten minutes walk from the station, so I'd be leaving home at about 6.15. No thanks!   

[simonesaffron]

A relative of mine travels to Manchester City Centre every day. He regularly travels to Didsbury. He uses the train and the tram.

He lives a ten minute walk from Marple Station. He's 51 yrs of age and fit and able, he could easily walk to the station.

Wheels has a point. Maybe instead of finding him a parking space, we should encourage him to walk to the station. As I am sure you would say Dave, better for him (bit of light exercise) and all around him - no traffic pollution.