Tram Train Strategy for Marple to Stockport

[Dave]

A tram from Marple to Stepping Hill would be the last straw for the 394. 

Don't worry rambler - it ain't gonna happen.  And neither are some of the other more wacky ideas that have recently popped up on this thread.  All that's going to happen to our local train services in the foreseeable future is that the dreadful 'Pacers' will be scrapped, as per the recent Northern Rail franchise agreement.  And then many years later (don't hold your breath) tram-train just might come along to Rose Hill.  That's it. 

[Duke Fame]

Dabbling my toes here as I haven't the detailed knowledge many have but one or two things strike me:

1 - Are we making the best use of what it already there/ being constructed? We assume Piccadilly is the end of the Marple line but once the Ordsall loop is completed are through trains being considered? To give a hypothetical example run trains to Leeds via Manchester & the stopping Hebden Bridge line then you can have many more trains "stored" in transit rather than stopped somewhere at a platform. This is essentially how the London cross rail project works.

2 - Some years ago I seem to recall an idea to run trains from Rosehill into Victoria which suggests there is still some infrastrucuture that could be brought back into play, which is what the current OS map suggests. I recall howls of protest but are we all so fixated on Piccadilly as the destination? Could this - lets call it the Ashbury chord - be constructed far more easily than any tram system?

I suggested a similar idea with Ardwick but was laughed out of town. My view is that either commuter trains or express trains can terminate at Ardwick with a continuous shuttle running to Picadilly in a similar way as airport departures / arrivals are dealt with at Gatwick. This would relieve the congestion at Picadilly.

[Duke Fame]

That really would be an advantage though not good news for those of us who use the 394. I am sometimes the only person on the 394 and even when there are a handful on the bus everyone seems to have a bus pass other than the students going to/from Ridge Danyers. A tram from Marple to Stepping Hill would be the last straw for the 394.  I am sure I read somewhere that signalling prevented both a Stepping Hill Hospital and also a Woodsmoor station. Surely conventional rolling stock/signaling cannot be so prohibitive?

I've always thought for rural areas, buses are not the answer, give local taxi firms the funding to shuttle to transport hubs (in this case tram stops)

[ringi]

Some years ago I seem to recall an idea to run trains from Rosehill into Victoria

That will make the time to catch a London train so bad that a bus to Stockport station  will start to look like a good option.  But with HS2, it will not go var Stockport!

Victoria is of no use apart from to people that work at the CoOp head office.

[corium]

Dabbling my toes here as I haven't the detailed knowledge many have but one or two things strike me:

1 - Are we making the best use of what it already there/ being constructed? We assume Piccadilly is the end of the Marple line but once the Ordsall loop is completed are through trains being considered? To give a hypothetical example run trains to Leeds via Manchester & the stopping Hebden Bridge line then you can have many more trains "stored" in transit rather than stopped somewhere at a platform. This is essentially how the London cross rail project works.

2 - Some years ago I seem to recall an idea to run trains from Rosehill into Victoria which suggests there is still some infrastrucuture that could be brought back into play, which is what the current OS map suggests. I recall howls of protest but are we all so fixated on Piccadilly as the destination? Could this - lets call it the Ashbury chord - be constructed far more easily than any tram system?

[marplerambler]

This would also provide a link to Stepping Hill Hospital.   

That really would be an advantage though not good news for those of us who use the 394. I am sometimes the only person on the 394 and even when there are a handful on the bus everyone seems to have a bus pass other than the students going to/from Ridge Danyers. A tram from Marple to Stepping Hill would be the last straw for the 394.  I am sure I read somewhere that signalling prevented both a Stepping Hill Hospital and also a Woodsmoor station. Surely conventional rolling stock/signaling cannot be so prohibitive?

[rsh]

I have never claimed to know the route. In fact If you scroll back you will see that I have asked the councillors if they could clarify what is being developed by TfGM. It is key to this project. I don't believe they will find a traffic free route.

The route you copied in appears to have several issues. Firstly it would require a double crossing of the Manchester to Gorton line involving both Ashburys East and West junctions. Considering the frequency of trams and the high volume of trains going towards Gorton its going to cause long waits. It then goes off towards Victoria in the direction of the Etihad and looks like going down an access ramp to get to street level. I think it will have to stop here to change electric systems. It then stops again for an unnamed new station.Crosses several road junctions with traffic lights and then presumably goes down a bus lane or even a normal traffic lane down Fairfield Street. I stand by my prediction of an increase in journey times of 5 to 10 minutes getting to Piccadilly. Forget Marple to Piccadilly in 21 minutes as the quickest scheduled train now takes.

How many millions is going to be spent on this tram project, digging roads, moving utilities, altering road layouts, building ramps etc.? Why not spend the money on electrifying the other Marple line at the same time as the upgrading the Bredbury route. Its not a great distance from Hyde to New Mills. What about the disruption to businesses and road users?

I imagine the line would cross by some kind of flyover, like the one near Central Park on the Oldham line? There's enough space for the Guide Bridge line to continue alongside as it does now. That Metrolink line is also a good example of how they're willing to spend on such fanciful infrastructure, and given the success - how worthwhile it is.

Again don't underestimate the time savings from electric acceleration and things like having more doors to let people on and off quicker, not to mention not having to wait for the guard to run back down the train from selling tickets to open said doors - I'd think more like 5 mins extra journey time max. Not a bad trade off for a vastly more frequent service and again, if you're continuing further into the city than Piccadilly, door to door times could be much quicker than having to walk from there.

The questions are all good ones to me too, I just wish we were hearing more about this to understand how it would really work and whether it'd be the step-change we want.

Regarding your second point about Piccadilly. I wasn't under the impression that Network Rail had the authority to dictate policy, I thought that was the role of government and devolved transport groups, elected mayors etc.

No you're right there, shouldn't have said Network Rail. But we can agree there's a general desire to get short, frequent local services like Marple out of those long platforms. Though even if the Northern Hub might free up capacity, I think the powers that be would still rather those new gaps not be taken just by more short services. Underground trains don't take up the platforms at Euston.

As I understand it from various documents available here and there, the idea is far from shovel ready and really we're waiting on the "results" of Sheffield's tram-train trial. Unfortunately they seem determined over there to make that happen as slowly as possible. 

[Duke Fame]

The Park and ride becomes useful when you have to pay for parking at the other end and can't park close to where you are going.      I expect it will also become useful for the airport when the new road open.

I don't know what plans there are to extend the bus lanes on the A6 once the new road open.

I'd hope Stockport did away with the bus lanes completely, they cause congestion.

If the A6 was two lanes with a roundabout at Stepping hill, St Mary's way and the Town hall, the road would not be the stuttering pain that it currently is.

The park and ride idea was a typical councillor's muddle. Worked out by someone who had some ideological 'green' agenda without understanding what people actually want. A bit like Dicky Leese's stupid TIF plan a few years ago. 

[Duke Fame]

This would also provide a link to Stepping Hill Hospital.   If we had the alternative route to Stockport via Brinnington as well, we could even have a full Stockport Marple circular Metrolink line 

Perhaps not totally bonkers. It may be a possible alternative, or even eventual circular route.

The other part of my bonkers plan is to link Stockport to the Airport, again, mainly using existing rails, linking up with the existing tram line beween Heald Green and Wythenshawe.

 

[ringi]

The Park and ride becomes useful when you have to pay for parking at the other end and can't park close to where you are going.      I expect it will also become useful for the airport when the new road open.

I don't know what plans there are to extend the bus lanes on the A6 once the new road open.

[JohnBates]

The best value solution would be to have trams running from Marple to rose hill, along Middlewood way joining the rarely used Buxton line, it should drop to the ill-thought out bus park & ride and then head to Stockport station, the tam should then head to the Airport via Cheadle. This would mainly utilise exiting (under-used) track, relieve cogestion on Stockport / Marple road as well as the A6 PLUS give Stockport a link to the Airport. Those wanting to get to Manchester just change at Stockpot where there are fast services.

This would also provide a link to Stepping Hill Hospital.   If we had the alternative route to Stockport via Brinnington as well, we could even have a full Stockport Marple circular Metrolink line 

(still as bonkers as ever, I see   .

Perhaps not totally bonkers. It may be a possible alternative, or even eventual circular route.

[Duke Fame]

Nice one! I  didn't think of that one! good to have you back - does this mean that you actually intend to pay to travel on the tram??
The million dollar question is 'is that because you have been in prison for the last year or because you have been born again?  http://www.marple-uk.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif
Just don't give us a fright by complaining that you can't take a bike on the tram or that you are setting up a Marple Momentum group!

I've actually moved beyond the Marple city limits and felt I shouldn't poke my nose into Marple matters anymore, but then again, I didn't want tl let the socialist movement have a free reign to infiltrate the area east of the A6.

As for paying on the tram, since the revelation that the train ticket doubles up, I've kept the right side of the tram police.

I've taken to using the park and ride at Hazel Grove but the ride bit is getting my bike out and riding the busy bit of the A6. When I first spotted the Park and ride thing, I assumed the point was to park up & get on one of the train lines but no, the ride bit is to pay though the nose to get on a 192 which managed to take twice as long as driving. Given all the advantages of driving over using this ridiculous white elephant, it was not surprising to find nobody actually uses it. This combination of inconvenience, cost and lack of speed made me realise that they just need to adapt what is already there a bit and they had a solution. The Buxton line doesn't have much traffic and could surely be adapted to share trams and trains whilst giving relief to the A6 as well as giving Marple the quick link to Stockport

[hatter76]

I've never seen anything in writing to suggest that a tram-train from Ashburys would go north to join the Etihad line, it would be an incredibly circuitous route and more importantly would miss out the chance to serve a wider area of the East Manchester regeneration with a stop.

By contrast, this plan from several years ago does show an indicative route, via Ashton Old Road and Fairfield St.


At the same time, it may be all well and good wanting to keep the train service into the main Piccadilly platforms, but Network Rail doesn't feel the same way. Marple and Rose Hill take up four platform movements an hour between them for relatively short, local services that would be much better used for bigger and longer distance trains with more people on them. Note the often absurd train-stacking of several services into one platform, leaving only minutes apart, with no room for future growth. Moving our services down onto their own Metrolink platform, making them much more frequent, with more pleasant rolling stock and better connections and street running right into the city seems a good trade-off to free up that platform space.

I have never claimed to know the route. In fact If you scroll back you will see that I have asked the councillors if they could clarify what is being developed by TfGM. It is key to this project. I don't believe they will find a traffic free route.

The route you copied in appears to have several issues. Firstly it would require a double crossing of the Manchester to Gorton line involving both Ashburys East and West junctions. Considering the frequency of trams and the high volume of trains going towards Gorton its going to cause long waits. It then goes off towards Victoria in the direction of the Etihad and looks like going down an access ramp to get to street level. I think it will have to stop here to change electric systems. It then stops again for an unnamed new station.Crosses several road junctions with traffic lights and then presumably goes down a bus lane or even a normal traffic lane down Fairfield Street. I stand by my prediction of an increase in journey times of 5 to 10 minutes getting to Piccadilly. Forget Marple to Piccadilly in 21 minutes as the quickest scheduled train now takes.

How many millions is going to be spent on this tram project, digging roads, moving utilities, altering road layouts, building ramps etc.? Why not spend the money on electrifying the other Marple line at the same time as the upgrading the Bredbury route. Its not a great distance from Hyde to New Mills. What about the disruption to businesses and road users?

Regarding your second point about Piccadilly. I wasn't under the impression that Network Rail had the authority to dictate policy, I thought that was the role of government and devolved transport groups, elected mayors etc.

Yes I accept it is full in terms of movements during the peak, but not for long. The Northern Hub project will do 2 things that are relevant. Firstly trains from Yorkshire to the Airport will not go into the main station and will use the new platform 15 and 16, freeing up space. Secondly platforms 11and 12 which are not often used will be brought back into main usage, freeing up platforms.

There was a report on line that was written about 10 years ago which stated that there was sufficient capacity for 4 trains per hour via Bredbury and the same via Woodley. If I find it I will post it on here. We could have a metro system using heavy rail without the problems already discusses. In fact this is what transport for London is proposing for all of their rail stations. We should do the same in Greater Manchester.

I have also read on here that Piccadilly is full, rubbish. London Liverpool Street has 80 million passengers and only 1 more platform than Piccadilly with 28 million. With longer trains you could triple the throughput of the station and keep the easy interchange benefits.

I suspect that this project is shovel ready and at some point in the next year it will be announced that funding has been secured. It will then go to consultation. The time to discuss is now. When its proposed very little can be done to influence it.

[marplerambler]

I'm not that sure it matters if someone has been in the Labour party before, people change their politics / see the light or get thoroughly appalled by the direction their party is going (which is fairly likely in this case).

Good grief! Curiouser and curiouser! I just found this as well!!! Not only 'welcome back but 'Welcome Aboard Comrade'. 

[marplerambler]

(tram) should drop to the ill-thought out bus park & ride

Nice one! I  didn't think of that one! good to have you back - does this mean that you actually intend to pay to travel on the tram??
The million dollar question is 'is that because you have been in prison for the last year or because you have been born again?  http://www.marple-uk.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif
Just don't give us a fright by complaining that you can't take a bike on the tram or that you are setting up a Marple Momentum group!