Tram Train Strategy for Marple to Stockport

[JohnBates]

John
Am I right in thinking that the red route from Bredbury to East Didsbury will not go through Stockport station?
Also, the green route has Marple tram trains going the long route through Brinnington and Reddish South. I understand there are issues around connecting Brinnington but this is going to add distance and time for passengers from Marple. For this to work it will have to be quicker than the bus which takes around 25 minutes outside the rush hour. Do you have a view on this?

As drawn on the diagram you are correct. The bit from Stockport to Didsbury is an older idea which will almost certainly not happen. More likely is on reaching Stockport to take the green route through station and then curve north to Didsbury.
There is also a less direct route from Bredbury to Stockport that may be possible via Brinnington. This will mean more on road running, but would help with access for Brinnington. see Orange route.

I would anticipate that:
1) First route Piccadilly to Marple/Rose Hill
2) Second Piccadilly to Stockport via Reddish
        2)a     possible Chord for Marple to Stockport via Reddish
3) Stockport to Airport
4) Marple to Stockport 

I would much prefer getting the Marple to Stockport option than chord at Reddish.  This may be if in future we can get a "Big Bang" approach to Tram Train centred on Stockport.  My worry is if we get more likely gradual development, we will get the Reddish Chord, and as a "direct link" in place we then never get the Marple Stockport route.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[hatter76]

It may add distance, but it won't add time.  Adding together the time taken by our present trains between Marple and Brinnington, and between Stockport and Reddish South, and adding on five minutes for the Reddish Vale Curve, produces an estimated journey time of 20 minutes from Rose Hill to Stockport Station.  That compares with between 25 and 35 minutes by bus, depending on the time of day. 

I think it is important to remember that for a project like this to proceed if will have to produce significant mode shift I.e. attract large number of people that currently use the car. Current times Rose Hill to Bredbury 8 minutes, Bredbury to Portwood guessing at 5 minutes. That would give you a 13 minute journey time to central Stockport, which is probably better than the car at anytime of the day. I am not sure that the longer route would deliver the same results.

Agree to your second point about there being a will to connect Reddish South and it would involve less construction

[Dave]

Also, the green route has Marple tram trains going the long route through Brinnington and Reddish South. I understand there are issues around connecting Brinnington but this is going to add distance and time for passengers from Marple. For this to work it will have to be quicker than the bus which takes around 25 minutes outside the rush hour.

It may add distance, but it won't add time.  Adding together the time taken by our present trains between Marple and Brinnington, and between Stockport and Reddish South, and adding on five minutes for the Reddish Vale Curve, produces an estimated journey time of 20 minutes from Rose Hill to Stockport Station.  That compares with between 25 and 35 minutes by bus, depending on the time of day.  And tram-trains, with their much better acceleration, will be faster than our existing trains, of course.

Crucially, I suspect the Reddish Vale route, though longer than a direct line from Bredbury would be, is much more likely to actually be built.  This is because the planners are obviously very interested in a Manchester - Stockport route via Reddish North and Reddish South.  That would entail building a 'north-facing' curve off the existing rail line between Reddish North and Brinnington, so it makes it that much more likely that a 'south-facing' curve might get built as well. 

[hatter76]

The trams approaching from Armoury will be coming from Altrincham/AirportCity using Stockport Altrincham line, and possibly from East Didsbury as well eventually. From the south will be coming from Piccadilly via Reddish. Not sure of alignment from Belmont way to new interchange but does come across proposed new bridge over Mersey at Astley street into Interchange.

John
Am I right in thinking that the red route from Bredbury to East Didsbury will not go through Stockport station?
Also, the green route has Marple tram trains going the long route through Brinnington and Reddish South. I understand there are issues around connecting Brinnington but this is going to add distance and time for passengers from Marple. For this to work it will have to be quicker than the bus which takes around 25 minutes outside the rush hour. Do you have a view on this?

[CllrGeoffAbell]

Just to note that as part of the Stockport town centre redevelopment, a corridor is being left for a possible future tram line.

Incidentally John, last week's Full Council had a Tory motion on train re-enfranchisement  that was friendly and all supported in principle. 

For those interested it's about 2:08 in,  on the following link.
http://www.stockport.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/205237

[JohnBates]

First thing is that this route came as an absolute shock to me quite simply because I had never imagined that the tram would approach from the Castle St pedestrian precinct as seems to be indicated by this map (though it could possibly be from Mercian Way).

The map prompts many more questions. Just where has the tram come from if it is approaching the Armoury roundabout from the Edgeley (western) side? Also the Bus station tram stop seems to be on the line of where all of the buses from the A6 (including the 384) enter the bus station from Exchange Street and the line seems to continue possibly northwards to cross the River Mersey. Where next? I have glanced through the report but perhaps didn't look close enough.

I will be fascinated by the full details of the proposed route into and out of Stockport. If anyone can elaborate upon this I would most grateful.

The trams approaching from Armoury will be coming from Altrincham/AirportCity using Stockport Altrincham line, and possibly from East Didsbury as well eventually. From the south will be coming from Piccadilly via Reddish. Not sure of alignment from Belmont way to new interchange but does come across proposed new bridge over Mersey at Astley street into Interchange.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[hatter76]

Figure 19 page 26 shows the tram descending all of the way down King st West to Chestergate but the detailed plan shows the tram using Shield St. I am becoming more confused by the minute!

Yes agree very confusing maps.
Page 15 is very telling, talks about Marple to Manchester and Stockport to Manchester tram trains but no mention of a possible Marple to Stockport link. More evidence that this is not being taken seriously is the The Stockport Rail Strategy January 2015 which appeared to simply draw a line from Bredbury to Stockport for the Marple to Stockport tram trains with no detailed analysis. It also cuts Marple off the map. Has any serious analysis been done? Timeframe?

The Stockport station master plan talks about possible delivery date of mid 2020s for Manchester to Stockport. From what I can gather this involves tram trains traveling from Piccadilly via Reddish North and curving off to to join the Reddish South line. It then comes off before the main Stockport line and goes down roads, possibly the A6 into Mersey Way, then up to Stockport stations Edgeley approach and then eventually joins with the Altrincham line.

Still want Marple to Manchester to remain as heavy rail with eventual electrification but fully supportive of the Marple to Stockport tram train project as it will be so much better than existing prevision. With proper signalling this is possible.

[marplerambler]

Figure 19 page 26 shows the tram descending all of the way down King st West to Chestergate but the detailed plan shows the tram using Shield St. I am becoming more confused by the minute!

[marplerambler]

Thank you for the Stockport Station Masterplan. The authors of this report have produced a map of proposed tram routes in Stockport which I believe to be the opening test in the first stage in procuring a job at GCHQ. Even as a lifelong Stopfordian I had to look hard to make any sense of it and place it in context so for the benefit of those who may be struggling the very first thing is that the lines and platforms lie almost north to south but the map does not follow the convention of having North at the 'top'.

There are absolutely no street names on the map, there is no symbol showing grid north and the map scale is so large it does not incorporate Wellington Road North to make the map comprehensible.

So for those who may have struggled, things become a long clearer when you identify the Armoury/ Castle Street roundabout at the extreme right and the parallel lanes of the bus station at the extreme left. The yellow tram station is sited on the sidings opposite platform 4. The green route drops down King St West from the Armoury roundabout but the tram doesn't stay on the road for very long -  Shield Street forks to the right in front of the Ironsides Lubricants factory, which drops down behind the back of the Stagecoach garage as a footpath/cycleway to Daw Bank between the Stagecoach Offices and the viaduct.

The yellow route would be a very steep descent from the station as anyone knows who uses the steps and ascent from the back of the bus station to ascend to the station approach. There is a great curve in this path to reduce the gradient. There used to be an entrance adjacent to the viaduct which went straight up parallel to the railway line and I do mean straight up (it is still shown on the map just to the right of the junction of yellow and green routes). Heaven knows how the tram could follow the line on the map without the demolition of several of the arches of the viaduct.

First thing is that this route came as an absolute shock to me quite simply because I had never imagined that the tram would approach from the Castle St pedestrian precinct as seems to be indicated by this map (though it could possibly be from Mercian Way).

The map prompts many more questions. Just where has the tram come from if it is approaching the Armoury roundabout from the Edgeley (western) side? Also the Bus station tram stop seems to be on the line of where all of the buses from the A6 (including the 384) enter the bus station from Exchange Street and the line seems to continue possibly northwards to cross the River Mersey. Where next? I have glanced through the report but perhaps didn't look close enough.

I will be fascinated by the full details of the proposed route into and out of Stockport. If anyone can elaborate upon this I would most grateful.

[JohnBates]

the draft masterplan for Stockport Station is now out here http://democracy.stockport.gov.uk/documents/s87313/Enc.%201%20for%20Stockport%20Rail%20Station%20Masterplan.pdf

This shows two possible alignments for potential Metrolink tram train from new interchange to the station. (see attached)

I also attach some views of proposed concept for station, also showing Metrolink. (thanks to posts on aforementioned skyscraper thread)

[attachment deleted by admin]

[amazon]

http://democracy.stockport.gov.uk/documents/s57207/Appendix%201Stockport%20Rail%20Strategy.pdf

Two Points from reading this
1. The Marple to Manchester Tram-Train will only go ahead if a designated route can be found.
2 The Marple to Stockport is rated as the lowest priority i.e. 4 out of 4 and is classed as aspirational. They don't appear to have carried out any serious analysis of the route and refer to previous analysis reports; whereas the other routes have had fresh benefit reports conducted. The Marple-Stockport if it ever was to be built would come off at Bredbury and take the more direct route to Stockport; the Reddish Vale curve is for Stockport to Manchester Tram- Trains.

Tram trains to Stockport is not even on the agenda for at least five years ,so what chance does Marple have .

[Duke Fame]

Firstly think about people that work at the airport.

Then think about people that DON'T cycle at present, as they are not happy on the current roads.   Current cycle users by definition are not representative of the people we need to get cycling.

If you are going to the airport and the link road is available, would we not just drive along it? We really only need to encourage people off the roads where there is/ a risk of congestion.

[hatter76]

http://democracy.stockport.gov.uk/documents/s57207/Appendix%201Stockport%20Rail%20Strategy.pdf

Two Points from reading this
1. The Marple to Manchester Tram-Train will only go ahead if a designated route can be found.
2 The Marple to Stockport is rated as the lowest priority i.e. 4 out of 4 and is classed as aspirational. They don't appear to have carried out any serious analysis of the route and refer to previous analysis reports; whereas the other routes have had fresh benefit reports conducted. The Marple-Stockport if it ever was to be built would come off at Bredbury and take the more direct route to Stockport; the Reddish Vale curve is for Stockport to Manchester Tram- Trains.

[ringi]

Why would you do that? If I'm cycling to Stockport or even Manc, I'm not going to get off my bike to jump on a slow bus that stops every 4 mins and then waits to catch up with the timetable. I'm especially not going to do that at precisely the point where the bike comes into it's own as a jam-buster.

Firstly think about people that work at the airport.

Then think about people that DON'T cycle at present, as they are not happy on the current roads.   Current cycle users by definition are not representative of the people we need to get cycling.

[Duke Fame]

I am starting to think we need a quality cycle track, (with a good surface and lights, so someone could use on a commuting bike while wearing work cloths) from Marple to the park and ride in Hazel Grove along with lots of bike lockers at the park and ride.

Also what about a single track guided bus way or bus only road with passing places?  There would be no need for tropic lights (signals) if the line of sight was good between the passing places.   Then a bus running every 15 minutes, so we had a good link into the 192 and a bus to the airport.   (Buses are a LOT cheaper then trains or trams to run!)

Why would you do that? If I'm cycling to Stockport or even Manc, I'm not going to get off my bike to jump on a slow bus that stops every 4 mins and then waits to catch up with the timetable. I'm especially not going to do that at precisely the point where the bike comes into it's own as a jam-buster.