Tram Train Strategy for Marple to Stockport

[hatter76]

Northern Rail is consulting on its proposed timetable improvements from May 2018. I have read plenty online about increases on the Hazel Grove line but can't find any info on Marple. We were meant to be getting 30 minute evening and Sunday frequencies as part of the franchise agreement. Can anyone advise?

[andrewbowden]

Journey time and seating capacity is also important.

Your examples are not like for like.
The Wimbledon tram opened up a new rail connection with secondary destinations such as Croydon, the main link to London remains heavy rail. The equivalent in Marple would be a tram link to Stockport.

London overground is an excellent system that improves journey times and frequency using existing rail routes. It does not diverge off the rails and mix with traffic. This is what we should be getting here in Marple.

The Sheffield tram train will not be running to metro frequencies and has been delayed by several years. It will also have to be closed down again at some point in the future to alter the electric system which it not compatible with network rail.

Wimbledon had a connection to Croydon before the tram.  It was provided by British Rail.  That service was replaced by the tram.  There was nothing new about that connection.  What was new was the level of service.

As for what we should get in Marple, we should get something that works, that provides high quality public transport and that gets people out of their cars.  That's what matters. 

[Harry]

I'm old enough to remember that train service, and it was a good one, as I recall  - a train every 20 minutes between Altrincham and Oxford Road, which took 20 minutes.    But then you had to walk to wherever you were actually going.  Now there is a tram every 6 minutes between Altrincham and St Peters Square (closest place to Oxford Road), and it takes 25 minutes. And it then continues through the city centre and will drop you where you actually want to go.  That is a far better service.

Actually the Altrincham service used to run to Piccadilly, calling at Knott Mill and Oxford Road. So an excellent service with stops across the city centre. I used to get this service to work, changing at Piccadilly for the Stockport train, from 1971. It used to be a 40 minute journey. Not too bad at all.

[Dave]

the plans for Rose Hill tram trains involve leaving at Ashburys.

Yes, that's one of the plans, but I've seen others - I don't think the route is fixed yet.

I will be very surprised if we get anything like 6 minute frequencies,

When the Metrolink service to Altrincham started in 1992, it was every 12 minutes, and we know that that will be the initial frequency to Rose Hill as well. The Altrincham service was so popular and well used that the frequency was increased to cope with the demand, and no doubt that will happen here too, if the demand warrants it.  And as there is unlikely to be more than two trains an hour going through Romiley from Marple and on to Guide Bridge, I can't see that being a problem.

You need to be more positive, hatter - it's good news for all of us! 

[hatter76]

I'm old enough to remember that train service, and it was a good one, as I recall  - a train every 20 minutes between Altrincham and Oxford Road, which took 20 minutes.    But then you had to walk to wherever you were actually going.  Now there is a tram every 6 minutes between Altrincham and St Peters Square (closest place to Oxford Road), and it takes 25 minutes. And it then continues through the city centre and will drop you where you actually want to go.  That is a far better service.

Difference is the Altrincham and Bury routes maintain their dedicated non street running formation until they get into the city, the plans for Rose Hill tram trains involve leaving at Ashburys. Secondly I will be very surprised if we get anything like 6 minute frequencies, the Rose Hill tram trains will have to fit in with ordinary trains from Marple and Sheffield. The Sheffield pilot tram train is typically running every 30 minutes.

[Dave]

The old Altrincham to Manchester trains were far superior to Metrolink in that they were much faster, which in many ways and for many purposes is the most important thing; certainly preferable to slow, more frequent services.

I'm old enough to remember that train service, and it was a good one, as I recall  - a train every 20 minutes between Altrincham and Oxford Road, which took 20 minutes.    But then you had to walk to wherever you were actually going.  Now there is a tram every 6 minutes between Altrincham and St Peters Square (closest place to Oxford Road), and it takes 25 minutes. And it then continues through the city centre and will drop you where you actually want to go.  That is a far better service.

 

[Condate]

Trams Vs trains.  Heavy Vs light.  Street Vs off street.  It's irrelevant.  It is all about the service.  Nothing else matters.  Get the service right and it will work.

I don't think so. The old Altrincham to Manchester trains were far superior to Metrolink in that they were much faster, which in many ways and for many purposes is the most important thing; certainly preferable to slow, more frequent services. Of course it depends on where you are going and coming from. The original Metrolink for example, seriously degraded the services from Mid-Cheshire to Manchester, increasing journey times to 1930 levels. For some people, trams are better, but for many people, conversion of real rail lines to trams is a substantial reduction in service.  What really matters is the fastest, most comfortable service with the plenty of seats for the number of people travelling and good connections to trains elsewhere, with a reasonable frequency. However, no setup is going to please everyone. 

[amazon]

Andrew is spot on.  If the Sheffield trials are successful, a frequent, reliable service from Rose Hill to Piccadilly using modern tram-train vehicles will be a huge success.  All the evidence from elsewhere points to that. 

But something will have to be done about parking at Rose Hill.  Either that, or use Marple and expand the car park behind the Purple Pakora.

Still wont be big enough .

[hatter76]

London Overground was a run down delipidated, unloved service with a low frequency.  I know.  I used to use it.  It was horrendous.  Now it is excellent.  That's the point.

Frankly the type of vehicle, and whether it's Street running or not.  It's about the level of service.  High frequency, reliability and modern vehicles get people to use services.

The original Metrolink's lines were heavy rail.  Within months of conversion they accounted for more than half of all rail usage in Manchester.

Still not sold?  Head to London again.  The core of the London Tramlink network was a series of unloved, barely used railway lines going "nowhere useful".  I used to live near the Wimbledon line.  That line now runs every few minutes until 1am.  The system has plenty of street running.  It hasn't held it back.

Trams Vs trains.  Heavy Vs light.  Street Vs off street.  It's irrelevant.  It is all about the service.  Nothing else matters.  Get the service right and it will work.

Journey time and seating capacity is also important.

Your examples are not like for like.
The Wimbledon tram opened up a new rail connection with secondary destinations such as Croydon, the main link to London remains heavy rail. The equivalent in Marple would be a tram link to Stockport.

London overground is an excellent system that improves journey times and frequency using existing rail routes. It does not diverge off the rails and mix with traffic. This is what we should be getting here in Marple.

The Sheffield tram train will not be running to metro frequencies and has been delayed by several years. It will also have to be closed down again at some point in the future to alter the electric system which it not compatible with network rail.

[Dave]

  It is all about the service.  Nothing else matters.  Get the service right and it will work.

Andrew is spot on.  If the Sheffield trials are successful, a frequent, reliable service from Rose Hill to Piccadilly using modern tram-train vehicles will be a huge success.  All the evidence from elsewhere points to that. 

But something will have to be done about parking at Rose Hill.  Either that, or use Marple and expand the car park behind the Purple Pakora.

[andrewbowden]

London overground is a frequent metro rail service using proper trains, no trams or street running, yes its a great success but were not being offered that.

London Overground was a run down delipidated, unloved service with a low frequency.  I know.  I used to use it.  It was horrendous.  Now it is excellent.  That's the point.

Frankly the type of vehicle, and whether it's Street running or not.  It's about the level of service.  High frequency, reliability and modern vehicles get people to use services.

The original Metrolink's lines were heavy rail.  Within months of conversion they accounted for more than half of all rail usage in Manchester.

Still not sold?  Head to London again.  The core of the London Tramlink network was a series of unloved, barely used railway lines going "nowhere useful".  I used to live near the Wimbledon line.  That line now runs every few minutes until 1am.  The system has plenty of street running.  It hasn't held it back.

Trams Vs trains.  Heavy Vs light.  Street Vs off street.  It's irrelevant.  It is all about the service.  Nothing else matters.  Get the service right and it will work.

[hatter76]

Apropos to nothing, but the train trams are now in testing in Sheffield.  They'll be running on the tram network first, and then tested on the rail network afterwards. 

I strongly suspect that tram-ing the Rose Hill line would be a big success.  It's well known that if you run a good service in an urban area, people will use it.  Metrolink was a prime example of that, and in London, the London Overground service took an unloved service and made it into a big success.   What these things need is a push - having a Mayor of Manchester should help in that respect.

London overground is a frequent metro rail service using proper trains, no trams or street running, yes its a great success but were not being offered that.

[andrewbowden]

Apropos to nothing, but the train trams are now in testing in Sheffield.  They'll be running on the tram network first, and then tested on the rail network afterwards. 

I strongly suspect that tram-ing the Rose Hill line would be a big success.  It's well known that if you run a good service in an urban area, people will use it.  Metrolink was a prime example of that, and in London, the London Overground service took an unloved service and made it into a big success.   What these things need is a push - having a Mayor of Manchester should help in that respect.

[hatter76]

Was on the 2035 Picc to Rose Hill tonight for the first time in about 10 years. Couldn't believe how busy it was, almost every seat taken leaving Manchester.  I used to get it regularly in the past and there was typically less then 10 on it. It just shows how much passenger growth there has been in the past decade. There is definitely demand for more evening trains.

I am not sure that the statistics are showing the true extent of the demand as there is no ticket barriers at this time, which leads to ticket less travel.

In terms of the closure of Marple in early April, it will be a good test of Rose Hills capacity to be the main Marple station as looks likely with tram trains.

[Dave]

I would anticipate that:
1) First route Piccadilly to Marple/Rose Hill
2) Second Piccadilly to Stockport via Reddish
        2)a     possible Chord for Marple to Stockport via Reddish
3) Stockport to Airport
4) Marple to Stockport 

I would much prefer getting the Marple to Stockport option than chord at Reddish.  This may be if in future we can get a "Big Bang" approach to Tram Train centred on Stockport.  My worry is if we get more likely gradual development, we will get the Reddish Chord, and as a "direct link" in place we then never get the Marple Stockport route.

That all makes sense as a realistic forecast of how things may pan out, though whether 3 and 4 will happen in the foreseeable future is open to doubt.  And let's remember it's all going to take years!

But hey, before we get too negative because the dream scheme is not on the cards, let's remember what we've got at the moment: a third rate service by noisy, uncomfortable overcrowded class 142 'Pacers', a very poor evening and Sunday service to Marple, no Sunday service and virtually no evening service to Rose Hill, no rail service to Stockport, and dreadful traffic congestion at peak times between Marple and Stockport.   Even if we only get John's priorities 1, 2 and 2a, that will give us greatly increased frequency (and therefore capacity) in modern faster tram-trains running through directly to the city centre and beyond, and a direct service to Stockport.  And hopefully this may have some beneficial impact on traffic congestion in persuading people back off the road and on to the rails.  However, we need to remember that this last benefit won't happen unless we do something about car parking at Marple and Rose Hill. We badly need a  Hazel Grove-style park-and ride scheme.