EU Referendum

[Condate]

@Condate I understand where you are intellectually coming from, but I would ask, how would you get your pan-nation consensus forum?  And in what way would it be radically different from the present?  It's a pretty unique situation where 28 nations come together through peaceful means.  You just have to look back through the last 400 years of European history.

The last 400 (and a lot more) years certainly show the problems of rivalries between nations. In particular, the rivalry between France and the Empire (and one of its successors, Germany).  That rivalry has had very serious consequences for all of Europe, even leaving aside the wars of the last century.   I think (and certainly hope) that we all know better than to carry on on that way. I do not think any current member of the EU wants to return to the old days of conflict. If the EU breaks down, as I expect it will, all the nations will be terrified of a return to the old days and will be very pleased to participate in the looser, more flexible association which is possible.

More generality I would also ask, after the birth-pains of getting through the Treaties of Rome, Maastricht or Lisbon, how has your life got worse?

Economically, it is more a question of how much better it would have been without those treaties. I also have much less influence in what happens in this country. I can no longer choose a government which will participate in discussions with other European nations and come to agreement where possible and reject what is not acceptable. There are many things we cannot stop if the other member states insist. Of course this works both ways and we can now, in agreement with a majority of other nations, force things on reluctant members. This is just as wrong.

International agreements and standardisations in various fields between European nations have gone on for over a century. Certainly well before the EEC, never mind EU existed. Such things are sensible, but only when all participants agree. I see a much looser Europe, where not all countries need enter all agreements and there is much more room for flexibility. Certainly there can be no European parliament, as I want a Europe where nations meet and their governments make the agreements.

[CllrGeoffAbell]

I was trying to analyse why I personally want In.    And perhaps get a response from others.  (Although I realise that this debate and the internal wranglings of the Conservative Party has seemed to last a very long time indeed.)

So far, 2 different replies - one I suspect wants Out at all costs, and the other more nuanced. 

To @mikes I say we could do these things but don't.  An example was the Reach initiative that investigated all known chemicals to assess their environmental impact and risk.  (Much resisted by German pharma companies, by the way).  So trivial, why bother?  Tell that to the worker how inhaled asbestos in the 50s, or the car companies that promoted Diesel engines as better for the environment.

Or the recent reduction in EU mobile roaming tariffs. 

Generally the EU costs us relatively small amounts - we pay 8 times the amount on defence, but I've not heard anyone ask us to get rid of the army yet!  And the MoD had some serious efficiency problems brought to light in the last decade.

@Condate I understand where you are intellectually coming from, but I would ask, how would you get your pan-nation consensus forum?  And in what way would it be radically different from the present?  It's a pretty unique situation where 28 nations come together through peaceful means.  You just have to llok back through the last 400 years of European history.

More generality I would also ask, after the birth-pains of getting through the Treaties of Rome, Maastricht or Lisbon, how has your life got worse?

As for the gravy train, it's the UKIP members who are worst, with a terrible attendance record (turning up for just 63% of the votes), but they still take the money.  Including office expenses for a free office.  ("It's a grey area" the leader was reported as saying in a BBC documentary a few years back.)

Got to get on.  Potholes don't fix themselves. 

[Condate]

3 weeks to go

When the arguments and statistics are peeled away, this referendum is really about one thing for me personally.

Do we want to befriend our fellow European nations, or do we want them at a distance?

Do we want our leaders to talk to the other neighbouring leaders to tackle issues like terrorism, financial crises or the environment?  Exchange ideas, not threats.

Well, for me the answer to those question is a very definite yes I want to befriend our European neighbours and a very definite yes, I want our leaders to talk to the other neighbouring leaders to tackle issues like terrorism, financial crises or the environment?  Exchange ideas, not threats.

I will of course be voting to leave the EU. The idea that leaving the EU means not doing those things is far from the minds of those of us who want to leave. If being in the EU simply means doing those things then I think few people would want to leave, but that isn't what the EU is about and I do not think it is possible to change the EU into a group of nations who need to talk and cooperate when they can and realise their common and interlinked history and culture. I want such a grouping, which realises that in many areas, cooperation is a good thing and where each nation realises that it has much to learn from the others. Such a grouping is what I expect to arise after the breakup of the EU and I would be happy for all the current members of the EU and others to join such a grouping and of course I would be happy to see the United Kingdom a member. It would be very different from the EU.



 
 

[mikes]

Clearly another potential candidate for the EU gravy train.  We could do all of those things without actually being in the EU. The corruption and waste and restrictions imposed make the EU a busted flush.

[CllrGeoffAbell]

3 weeks to go

When the arguments and statistics are peeled away, this referendum is really about one thing for me personally.

Do we want to befriend our fellow European nations, or do we want them at a distance?

Do we want our leaders to talk to the other neighbouring leaders to tackle issues like terrorism, financial crises or the environment?  Exchange ideas, not threats.

Of course we have the capacity to go it alone, but why throw away 50 years when 28 strong, democratic nations freely came together after one of the most bloody conflicts the world has seen?

We have a United Kingdom, so why not a consensus-building, solid EU, where you can only get a result, not by ordering people, but by persuading them of your argument?

Share a strong link, but not a strong government, with peoples that share a common economy, history and way of life.

For me, as you’ve guessed, the answer is that we are Stronger In and I will vote positively and choose to remain in one of the most unique organisations in the world. 

And I shall do it partly so that my children will inherit a better, safer and more thriving world.
 
Cllr Geoff Abell

[Dave]

More often that not, and for all of our sakes I hope they have this time too!   

[simonesaffron]

Famously, they and the opinion pollsters got it wrong at last year's General Election! 

They did Dave, but how many times prior to that have they got it right.

[Dave]

Famously, they and the opinion pollsters got it wrong at last year's General Election! 

[simonesaffron]

I'd be fascinated to know what's in this post but it's being blocked by my parental filter - is BT broadband taking a stand on the EU poll, is this actually a link to a rather risque site? I'm intrigued!

No such fun Corium, its a summary of all the major bookmakers odds on staying or leaving. They are all offering various odds on how the electorate will vote. In the main they are offering odds on, for staying and odds against for leaving.

It is interesting as the old saying in betting circles goes ..." You never see a poor bookie." Are the bookies always right?

[hatter76]

I'd be fascinated to know what's in this post but it's being blocked by my parental filter - is BT broadband taking a stand on the EU poll, is this actually a link to a rather risque site? I'm intrigued!

Nothing that exiting corium, just a list of odds that show the leave side is losing the debate.

[corium]

I'd be fascinated to know what's in this post but it's being blocked by my parental filter - is BT broadband taking a stand on the EU poll, is this actually a link to a rather risque site? I'm intrigued!

[Dave]

A lot could change in the next two months, but for what it's worth, this is slightly reassuring:  http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/eu-referendum/referendum-on-eu-membership-result

[hatter76]

Much better to stay with it and have a say in what happens, than just suffer the consequences.

What say do we really have with majority voting on most issues and the German French alliance controlling the direction and agenda?
Like the Euro the EU is heading for disaster, we need to get off the bus .

[Dave]

Welcome back again Duke - it's not the same when you go away!

If wanting Vladimir Putin to run Europe doesn't make you a headbanger, what does?

Can't say I fully understand all of Duke's post, but I get the general drift, and I especially agree with this bit

My argument is that we are better placed to affect change within than from outside.

If we leave (God forbid!) the EU will not go away.  It will still be there on our doorstep, and what happens within it will have a huge effect on us.  Much better to stay with it and have a say in what happens, than just suffer the consequences. 

[Duke Fame]

I've just stumbled across an example of just such a headbanger.  http://www.theweek.co.uk/71732/vladimir-putin-should-be-running-europe-says-bernie-ecclestone

That's the sort of company Brexit campaigners are keeping.........     

Now we know that guy's a joke, but actually it's not funny.  In fact, nothing about this referendum is funny - I honestly believe it's potentially the most serious decision we will have to take in most of our lifetimes, and the consequences of getting it wrong are unknown, and could be catastrophic.   What is known is that Putin would be delighted to see the UK leave the EU, because it could very well be the start of a partial or even complete break up.  And of course, ISIS would be delighted as well. You know what the Romans used to say, 2,000 years ago: Divide and Conquer. 

And then there's the Scots, who are expected to vote 'remain' by a sizeable majority.  That would probably lead to another independence referendum, and the result could very well be different this time. That leaves England, Wales and Northern Ireland out in the cold - and how long would Northern Ireland stick with us, once it is policing a land border with the EU?   

Scary times.

I am in favour of staying in but these arguments and language such as 'headbanger' and for that matter 'swivel eyed loons' does the argument no favours and to be honest, it's no surprise Dave has adopted this tactic.

 Will we trade with the EU? Of course we will. Will we trade with anyone else? Of course. The free market is extending, not contracting.

There is a lot wrong with the EU and we should use this referendum to get reform.

My problem with the EU is that it creates a micro economy of high wages, false currencies and protectionism.  That will inevitable blow and whilst it's argued we are better prepared outside the European Union we will still after the fallout.

My argument is that we are better placed to affect change within than from outside.