EU Referendum

[CllrGeoffAbell]

Check the history.  In 1950 there was an attempt at integration.  Beginning with iron and steel. Ironic given what's with Tata steel and China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Coal_and_Steel_Community

And @Dave and @admin are most definitely not one and the same.   Although they could be Batman and Superman.

[admin]

I'm sure Dave aka Mark W. / admin/moderator/site owner will manage to turn this into a racist/homophobic post using one of his many user-names.

Or just delete it because it disagrees his blinkered thinking?

Oh dear! How to answer this? Do I have to answer it? I guess I have to give it a go!

I suppose I could come clean and admit that I'm also @Dave, and @simonesaffron, and @Phil and @wheels and all the other people who sometimes say things that I wish I'd thought of on here (well not wheels actually) but it wouldn't be true. I only have one account and that's enough for me. Of course some of what you say is true, as my name is Mark Whittaker, I'm the owner of the site, the “Admin” and one of the moderators but it's all done against the same account (or do you think I'm @Howard and @Lisa Oldham too?)

I have removed a video you embedded in this thread because I didn't like it – and I did agree with what Dave said about it too actually. I didn't want people to be able to view it through my site and I said so when I removed it. I make no apologies for that and if you don''t like it you are welcome not to post on here any more.

I haven't deleted or moderated anything else you have written on this forum but I have moved your silly “Chubby Checker” comments and video to the “Trolling, Trivia and off topic posts” section as that's where I think it belongs.

So, if you can't contribute to the discussions on here without continuing to have a pop at Dave, or at me or anyone else who disagrees with you, then please don't post on here any more.

[Howard]

The result of being in the EU & being governed by Brussels bureaucrats:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36094575

@Russ This ruling is NOTHING to do with "Brussels bureaucrats". It's down to Norway being signed up to the European Convention on Human Rights (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_Rights) which has been signed up to by all members of the Council of Europe.  This includes 47 member states (including Russia), 5 Council observers and 3 Assembly Observers.

I'm sure Dave aka Mark W. / admin/moderator/site owner will manage to turn this into a racist/homophobic post using one of his many user-names.

Or just delete it because it disagrees his blinkered thinking?

FYI Dave is a long-standing member of the forum and is not the same person as Mark, admin, moderator etc.

[hatter76]

The problem here, Russ, is not racism - it's sheer confusion!

The European Convention on Human Rights is an international treaty which has been signed by 47 countries, including quite a few (e.g. Russia) which are unlikely ever to be members of the EU.

Above all, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU.  If we were to leave the EU, it would not affect our membership of the ECHR in any way, and it is inconceivable, IMHO, that we would cease to be members for any other reason. 

So it's just irrelevant.

As I said before, Russ - you're in a hole, so stop digging!   

In 1215  the then king of England, King John signed the Magna Carta. It guarantees the right of a fair trial to all citizens. We also had trade agreements with most of the then developed world.

We really have no need for this rubbish from European courts or the EU.

[Dave]

The problem here, Russ, is not racism - it's sheer confusion!

The European Convention on Human Rights is an international treaty which has been signed by 47 countries, including quite a few (e.g. Russia) which are unlikely ever to be members of the EU.

Above all, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU.  If we were to leave the EU, it would not affect our membership of the ECHR in any way, and it is inconceivable, IMHO, that we would cease to be members for any other reason. 

So it's just irrelevant.

As I said before, Russ - you're in a hole, so stop digging!   

[Russ]

The result of being in the EU & being governed by Brussels bureaucrats:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36094575

I'm sure Dave aka Mark W. / admin/moderator/site owner will manage to turn this into a racist/homophobic post using one of his many user-names.

Or just delete it because it disagrees his blinkered thinking?

[wheels]

Wrong! We voted to join the Common Market. Basically it was a trade agreement. We were not voting to say that we wanted to be ruled by Brussels and lose our sovereignty. If that is what we were voting for, then we were lied to.

We were  not lied to there was certainly an element of what was called the Common Market but there was absolutely not doubt whatsoever that we were voting to join what would in the long term would be a federal Europe.  We were very clear about that at the time and that's what we voted for. Those who try to pretend it was all about a trade agreement are either misleading us now or didn't understand at the time.

[Dave]

Yes, I most definitely think of myself as European. British first, but European certainly. I could hardly do otherwise, considering the historical and cultural links with other European nations. Our culture is thoroughly European.  That doesn't mean I want a federal Europe by any means. Close cooperation, friendship and mutual support certainly. A federal Europe certainly not. Neither do I want a Britain which ignores our common European history and culture.

So far so good - I go along with every word of that!  So how does Condate get from there to here?

I just do not believe the EU is the way forward for Europe. I don't see the in - out argument as being about the future of the UK. It's about the future of Europe and about building a peaceful and prosperous Europe, which is not based on the structure of the EU [my italics]

Why not?  If not based on the structure of the EU, what will it be based on?  We are not looking at a blank sheet of paper - the EU is a well-established organisation which has existed in one form or another for almost seventy years.  It has already achieved the 'peaceful and prosperous Europe' which Condate wants to build.  There's a lot wrong with it, but there is widespread awareness of that throughout Europe, and changes are undoubtedly going to take place - albeit slowly, because that's the way it always is with such huge organisations.  The euro has been a disaster - that will have to change.  The migrant crisis has been threatening the existence of the Schengen zone - that will have to change.  The EU has always changed, and it will continue to do so.  But surely we have nothing to gain and an awful lot to lose by tearing up the EU and starting again with some kind of new organisation?

[JohnBates]

Yes, I most definitely think of myself as European. British first, but European certainly. I could hardly do otherwise, considering the historical and cultural links with other European nations. Our culture is thoroughly European.  That doesn't mean I want a federal Europe by any means. Close cooperation, friendship and mutual support certainly. A federal Europe certainly not. Neither do I want a Britain which ignores our common European history and culture. I just do not believe the EU is the way forward for Europe. I don't see the in - out argument as being about the future of the UK. It's about the future of Europe and about building a peaceful and prosperous Europe, which is not based on the structure of the EU. I expect Britain's future to involve the rest of Europe and also the rest of the world.

What he said. Well put @Condate

[Condate]

But do not most of us, irrespective of the EU, think of ourselves as europeans thus the concept of the nation state is now a thing of the past that is surley why we should be working towards a fully federal europe. That after all is what we voted for in 1975 it's just been too slow coming.

Yes, I most definitely think of myself as European. British first, but European certainly. I could hardly do otherwise, considering the historical and cultural links with other European nations. Our culture is thoroughly European.  That doesn't mean I want a federal Europe by any means. Close cooperation, friendship and mutual support certainly. A federal Europe certainly not. Neither do I want a Britain which ignores our common European history and culture. I just do not believe the EU is the way forward for Europe. I don't see the in - out argument as being about the future of the UK. It's about the future of Europe and about building a peaceful and prosperous Europe, which is not based on the structure of the EU. I expect Britain's future to involve the rest of Europe and also the rest of the world.

[Harry]

But do not most of us, irrespective of the EU, think of ourselves as europeans thus the concept of the nation state is now a thing of the past that is surley why we should be working towards a fully federal europe. That after all is what we voted for in 1975 it's just been too slow coming.

Wrong! We voted to join the Common Market. Basically it was a trade agreement. We were not voting to say that we wanted to be ruled by Brussels and lose our sovereignty. If that is what we were voting for, then we were lied to.

As for thinking of myself as European, no, I'm British. When asked where I'm from I say 'The U.K.'  I don't say Europe, even when I'm on the opposite side of the planet. I don't think I've ever heard anyone describe themselves as European.

There are huge cultural differences between a number of European nations. It's nothing to do with race, just culture and behaviour.

[Dave]

Some of us undoubtedly regard ourselves as Europeans, wheels, but I suspect some of the Brexit campaigners don't.  As for a federal Europe, dream on! Since the near-collapse of the euro, and the possible break up of the Schengen zone, that's less likely than ever.

But despite all that, there is little doubt that the UK leaving the EU would be a complete disaster for this country and the rest of Europe.

[wheels]

But do not most of us, irrespective of the EU, think of ourselves as europeans thus the concept of the nation state is now a thing of the past that is surley why we should be working towards a fully federal europe. That after all is what we voted for in 1975 it's just been too slow coming.

[Condate]

I don't understand why anyone would want to stop laws, regulations and harmonisation that BENEFITS us, our business and protects our employees.

Firstly, many would question whether these laws do in fact benefit us. However, it is up to the electorate of this and the other nations to choose a parliament to decide what laws we have. If laws and regulations introduced by the EU are indeed beneficial (and I don't think even the most fanatical out campaigner would deny that some are), there is no reason why our own legislature cannot keep them. Such laws would not be reversed following an exit from the EU unless a parliament elected by the voters of this country decides to do so.

[wheels]

The difference is one is a democracy the other is a form of bureaucratic rule. The EU parliament is an upper chamber similar to the Lords, it doesn't drive the agenda or make the laws, this is done by the Council of Ministers that is unelected.

Most of our countries laws now come from the unelected nightmare. It time to put our own county and democracy first.

I don't understand why anyone would want to stop laws, regulations and harmonisation that BENEFITS us, our business and protects our employees.