EU Referendum

[wheels]

Your right Harry Dave did forget to mention that plague of locusts that will affect us if we vote to leave. So thank for pointing it out and let's vote IN to avoid that and worse. Sod the sovereignty eh.

[Harry]

I've just stumbled across an example of just such a headbanger.  http://www.theweek.co.uk/71732/vladimir-putin-should-be-running-europe-says-bernie-ecclestone

That's the sort of company Brexit campaigners are keeping.........     

Now we know that guy's a joke, but actually it's not funny.  In fact, nothing about this referendum is funny - I honestly believe it's potentially the most serious decision we will have to take in most of our lifetimes, and the consequences of getting it wrong are unknown, and could be catastrophic.   What is known is that Putin would be delighted to see the UK leave the EU, because it could very well be the start of a partial or even complete break up.  And of course, ISIS would be delighted as well. You know what the Romans used to say, 2,000 years ago: Divide and Conquer. 

And then there's the Scots, who are expected to vote 'remain' by a sizeable majority.  That would probably lead to another independence referendum, and the result could very well be different this time. That leaves England, Wales and Northern Ireland out in the cold - and how long would Northern Ireland stick with us, once it is policing a land border with the EU?   

Scary times.

Dave, you forgot to mention the plague of locusts that will affect us if we leave.

[hatter76]

I've just stumbled across an example of just such a headbanger.  http://www.theweek.co.uk/71732/vladimir-putin-should-be-running-europe-says-bernie-ecclestone

That's the sort of company Brexit campaigners are keeping.........     

Now we know that guy's a joke, but actually it's not funny.  In fact, nothing about this referendum is funny - I honestly believe it's potentially the most serious decision we will have to take in most of our lifetimes, and the consequences of getting it wrong are unknown, and could be catastrophic.   What is known is that Putin would be delighted to see the UK leave the EU, because it could very well be the start of a partial or even complete break up.  And of course, ISIS would be delighted as well. You know what the Romans used to say, 2,000 years ago: Divide and Conquer. 

And then there's the Scots, who are expected to vote 'remain' by a sizeable majority.  That would probably lead to another independence referendum, and the result could very well be different this time. That leaves England, Wales and Northern Ireland out in the cold - and how long would Northern Ireland stick with us, once it is policing a land border with the EU?   

Scary times.

Quite funny Dave to see you quoting yourself

We need to make friends with Russia and form closer links with them, the potential for increased trade is massive. The problem is that the EU has got involved with the likes of Ukraine and other Baltic states and put them on the path of membership. Its a clear example of how we would be better without the EU interference, an independent UK would be free from this baggage enabling closer links.

As for the other UK countries it is a matter for them. I think that Britain will boom outside the UK, funding sent away could be redirected to UK regions, increasing productivity and growth. We currently only get half of our funding back that we put into the EU.

[Dave]

Or we can completely pull up the drawbridge and go it alone - but only the hardcore Brexit headbangers seriously want that!

I've just stumbled across an example of just such a headbanger.  http://www.theweek.co.uk/71732/vladimir-putin-should-be-running-europe-says-bernie-ecclestone

That's the sort of company Brexit campaigners are keeping.........     

Now we know that guy's a joke, but actually it's not funny.  In fact, nothing about this referendum is funny - I honestly believe it's potentially the most serious decision we will have to take in most of our lifetimes, and the consequences of getting it wrong are unknown, and could be catastrophic.   What is known is that Putin would be delighted to see the UK leave the EU, because it could very well be the start of a partial or even complete break up.  And of course, ISIS would be delighted as well. You know what the Romans used to say, 2,000 years ago: Divide and Conquer. 

And then there's the Scots, who are expected to vote 'remain' by a sizeable majority.  That would probably lead to another independence referendum, and the result could very well be different this time. That leaves England, Wales and Northern Ireland out in the cold - and how long would Northern Ireland stick with us, once it is policing a land border with the EU?   

Scary times.

[simonesaffron]

Admin........ I did find it amusing  and didn't take offence so no apologies required.

You might find it hard to believe but I've had much worse said about me on line. 😆

No, now you've gone too far Wheels, knowing you as we do, you really can't expect anybody on this site to believe such exaggeration

[wheels]

Admin........ I did find it amusing  and didn't take offence so no apologies required.

You might find it hard to believe but I've had much worse said about me on line. 😆

[admin]

So do I take it that Russ can't have a pop at people but you can?...... all handed down to us in the same message.

I'm sorry wheels, I thought you'd find it amusing too as we rarely see eye-to-eye but if you don't then I apologise.

Now tell the good people of this forum why one person is allowed to hurl his insults at anybody & everybody who disagrees with him? Most on here have been subjected to his poison & twisting of a few chosen words at one time or another.

And why, when somebody dare have a pop back, even in jest, gets their posts deleted?

I came to an obvious conclusion.

As I've said already Russ, your posts haven't been deleted, they've been moved to a more appropriate place.

[Dave]

The problem is that the EU is so far from the sort of Europe which would benefit Britain, or indeed the other member nations, that starting again is the only option left. If we reform the EU in such a way as to remove the problems, we end up with something barely recognisable as the EU. For a start, the notion of "ever closer union" would have to go.

It's gone, certainly as far as the UK is concerned, and we are not alone. 

A federal Europe, or anything like it is bad for Britain and for all the nations of Europe.

Agreed - it ain't gonna happen.

We need a much looser organisation which looks outward to the rest of the world and accepts the rights of all the nations to determine their own laws and customs. Of course while giving Britain full control of its laws and practices, we need to accept that other nations are perfectly entitled to do the same. We may not like what other nations decide to do in some cases and they may not like what we decide to do, but mutual respect and the advantages of cooperation can cope with this.

That's the way the EU is heading, IMHO.  But slowly, because it's such a huge cumbersome and diverse organisation.  And obviously the problem with 'giving Britain [or any other EU country] full control of its laws and practices' is that the harmonisation of labour laws is a necessary condition for the much prized 'single market'.  You can't have one without the other.  If we left the EU but wished to remain in the single market (like Norway and Switzerland), we would still have to accept much of the pan-European regulations - banning of restrictive practices, health and safety regulations etc etc. 

Or we can completely pull up the drawbridge and go it alone - but only the hardcore Brexit headbangers seriously want that! 

[wheels]

Oh dear! How to answer this? Do I have to answer it? I guess I have to give it a go!

I suppose I could come clean and admit that I'm also @Dave, and @simonesaffron, and @Phil and @wheels and all the other people who sometimes say things that I wish I'd thought of on here (well not wheels actually)


So, if you can't contribute to the discussions on here without continuing to have a pop at Dave, or at me or anyone else who disagrees with you, then please don't post on here any more.

So do I take it that Russ can't have a pop at people but you can?...... all handed down to us in the same message. 

[Condate]

We were  not lied to there was certainly an element of what was called the Common Market but there was absolutely not doubt whatsoever that we were voting to join what would in the long term would be a federal Europe.  We were very clear about that at the time and that's what we voted for. Those who try to pretend it was all about a trade agreement are either misleading us now or didn't understand at the time.

Here is the Government pamphlet of the time.

http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm

I don't read anything there about a federal Europe.

[Condate]

We were  not lied to there was certainly an element of what was called the Common Market but there was absolutely not doubt whatsoever that we were voting to join what would in the long term would be a federal Europe.  We were very clear about that at the time and that's what we voted for. Those who try to pretend it was all about a trade agreement are either misleading us now or didn't understand at the time.

Most people were not at all clear about this. If you ask people who voted yes, you will find a very large number indeed who did not realise that a federal Europe was a possibility. I was just short of 18 at the time, but if I had been able to vote, I would have voted yes, having been reassured by many statements from the yes campaign that this was not going to lead to loss of British sovereignty. This is why so many people consider they were lied to. It's not just a few; it's a very large proportion of the electorate.
 

[Condate]

So far so good - I go along with every word of that!  So how does Condate get from there to here?
Why not?  If not based on the structure of the EU, what will it be based on?  We are not looking at a blank sheet of paper - the EU is a well-established organisation which has existed in one form or another for almost seventy years.  It has already achieved the 'peaceful and prosperous Europe' which Condate wants to build.  There's a lot wrong with it, but there is widespread awareness of that throughout Europe, and changes are undoubtedly going to take place - albeit slowly, because that's the way it always is with such huge organisations.  The euro has been a disaster - that will have to change.  The migrant crisis has been threatening the existence of the Schengen zone - that will have to change.  The EU has always changed, and it will continue to do so.  But surely we have nothing to gain and an awful lot to lose by tearing up the EU and starting again with some kind of new organisation?

The problem is that the EU is so far from the sort of Europe which would benefit Britain, or indeed the other member nations, that starting again is the only option left. If we reform the EU in such a way as to remove the problems, we end up with something barely recognisable as the EU. For a start, the notion of "ever closer union" would have to go. A federal Europe, or anything like it is bad for Britain and for all the nations of Europe. We need a much looser organisation which looks outward to the rest of the world and accepts the rights of all the nations to determine their own laws and customs. Of course while giving Britain full control of its laws and practices, we need to accept that other nations are perfectly entitled to do the same. We may not like what other nations decide to do in some cases and they may not like what we decide to do, but mutual respect and the advantages of cooperation can cope with this.
 

[Russ]

@Russ This ruling is NOTHING to do with "Brussels bureaucrats". It's down to Norway being signed up to the European Convention on Human Rights (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_Rights) which has been signed up to by all members of the Council of Europe.  This includes 47 member states (including Russia), 5 Council observers and 3 Assembly Observers.
FYI Dave is a long-standing member of the forum and is not the same person as Mark, admin, moderator etc.

Re the Brussells bureucrats, nothing to do with them? What's this all about then?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/32692758/human-rights-act-versus-a-british-bill-of-rights

Now tell the good people of this forum why one person is allowed to hurl his insults at anybody & everybody who disagrees with him? Most on here have been subjected to his poison & twisting of a few chosen words at one time or another.

And why, when somebody dare have a pop back, even in jest, gets their posts deleted?

I came to an obvious conclusion.

[Dave]

We really have no need for this rubbish from European courts or the EU.

So what are you suggesting, hatter?  That the UK should step down from the Council of Europe, and join Belarus and Kazakhstan as the only European countries which are not members, because of their poor human rights records - torture, execution, religious oppression etc etc.  What delightful company! 

[Harry]

We were  not lied to there was certainly an element of what was called the Common Market but there was absolutely not doubt whatsoever that we were voting to join what would in the long term would be a federal Europe.  We were very clear about that at the time and that's what we voted for. Those who try to pretend it was all about a trade agreement are either misleading us now or didn't understand at the time.

I was only 22 at the time, slightly older than you wheels, with no interest at all in politics, but I remember very well what it was called and what it was about. We were told that membership would reduce prices in our shops to the level of those in France and Spain. That is why we, the public, voted the way we did.

Ask people older than us, with no political interests, and I think you'll find they will remember similarly.