EU Referendum

[Dave]

Quite simply we did not elect the executive, we can not influence the executive and we can not vote out the executive.

Just like the UK government.  We did not elect the ministers to their positions - the Prime Minister appointed them.  And neither can we vote them all out - only Parliament can do that. 

Thanks to the House of Lords, the UK has one of the least democratic parliaments in Europe.  So until we put our own house (of Lords) in order, we should not be lecturing anyone else on democracy.

I agree with hatter's concerns  about TTIP, but there is widespread opposition to it throughout Europe. It is not a done deal yet - far from it. 

[hatter76]

We can argue about the democratic/undemocratic process of the EU all day long.Most

Unfortunately most people are just concerned about it. Their issues AR about immigration, sovereignty and little else. The newspapers are bombarding people with both these issues. The result though tilting towards Brexit It is still a hard one to call and it depends who you talk to.

I've been involved in a project this week with 18/24 year olds (not a political project) we casually discussed the EU and 90% of them were in favour of staying. What surprised me most was when I asked them about being influenced by the newspapers they said that they didn't buy nor read them. W

Unfortunately the EU has a specific funding pot set aside to sell the EU project to young people, which includes social media campaigns and videos. Hopefully when they start thinking themselves at some point.

Another issue that is hardly ever discussed is the transatlantic trade investment partnership TTIP. There are some real concerns around this which is being led by the US and the EU. If successful it will open up competition to public sector contracts to private companies potentially privatising the NHS and provide the lowest common welfare standards in food production. I'm not an expert on it but there is plenty about this on google but it is hardly ever mentioned in the press or TV. No doubt large firms have been lobbying the unelected EU Commissioners wanting this deal to go through. This is another example of how decisions are being imposed upon us.

[Kevin Dowling]

Continued:

Well of course they don't, all their news/info is via social media. Whereas ours because of our age is via the media.

[Kevin Dowling]

We can argue about the democratic/undemocratic process of the EU all day long.Most

Unfortunately most people are just concerned about it. Their issues AR about immigration, sovereignty and little else. The newspapers are bombarding people with both these issues. The result though tilting towards Brexit It is still a hard one to call and it depends who you talk to.

I've been involved in a project this week with 18/24 year olds (not a political project) we casually discussed the EU and 90% of them were in favour of staying. What surprised me most was when I asked them about being influenced by the newspapers they said that they didn't buy nor read them. W

[hatter76]

Well, we're making a bit of progress - I'm pleased we can now agree that the EU commissioners are not 'self-appointed'.
Agreed.
No they aren't.  The Commission proposes and drafts legislation, which then has to be passed by the directly elected Parliament and the Council of Ministers representing the 28 democratically elected governments. If it is passed, it's the Commission's job to implement it. 
Not really.  A better analogy would be with government ministers, as the 28 commissioners all have a specific area of responsibility. 
The oath is that the commissioners will be completely independent in carrying out their duties, acting in the widest interests of the EU and not in the interests of the country which nominated them.  In other words, they are not national representatives.  Would anyone want it any other way?
 
That simply isn't true, as explained above.  It is undoubtedly a democratic system.  But it's not perfect, and many people across Europe would like the Commission to be more accountable on a day-to-day basis than it currently is.  The question is, how to achieve that.    The sheer size of the EU population (half a billion people) is part of the problem.  As Winston Churchill once said, ''Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.'

On the subject of the referendum itself, I've got a creeping feeling that we may be heading for Brexit.  Hatter and I can argue about democracy, but I doubt whether most people care much about that.  The issue which seems to be prevailing is immigration, and I think we could be heading for a gigantic and historic leap in the dark, with who knows what consequences.  Scary..........

Quite simply we did not elect the executive, we can not influence the executive and we can not vote out the executive. If you think this is democratic then so be it.
The Council of Ministers are there to pave things other with the funders (national governments), the upper chamber the parliament is a smoke screen to give the illusion of accountability, ask a few questions and claim the expenses.

Who is really behind the EU?

I agree that most people don't give a .... about this issue but it should be important. 

[Dave]

Well, we're making a bit of progress - I'm pleased we can now agree that the EU commissioners are not 'self-appointed'.

The Commissioners are the executive of the EU

Agreed.

they are therefore responsible for all decisions, direction and leadership.

No they aren't.  The Commission proposes and drafts legislation, which then has to be passed by the directly elected Parliament and the Council of Ministers representing the 28 democratically elected governments. If it is passed, it's the Commission's job to implement it. 

It is the equivalent of a senior civil servant being Prime Minister.

Not really.  A better analogy would be with government ministers, as the 28 commissioners all have a specific area of responsibility. 

Once they take office they have to take an oath of elegance to the EU, its beliefs and agree to put its needs above national government.

The oath is that the commissioners will be completely independent in carrying out their duties, acting in the widest interests of the EU and not in the interests of the country which nominated them.  In other words, they are not national representatives.  Would anyone want it any other way?

It is completely undemocratic.

 
That simply isn't true, as explained above.  It is undoubtedly a democratic system.  But it's not perfect, and many people across Europe would like the Commission to be more accountable on a day-to-day basis than it currently is.  The question is, how to achieve that.    The sheer size of the EU population (half a billion people) is part of the problem.  As Winston Churchill once said, ''Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.'

On the subject of the referendum itself, I've got a creeping feeling that we may be heading for Brexit.  Hatter and I can argue about democracy, but I doubt whether most people care much about that.  The issue which seems to be prevailing is immigration, and I think we could be heading for a gigantic and historic leap in the dark, with who knows what consequences.  Scary..........

[hatter76]

No, the 28 EU commissioners are each nominated by the democratically elected governments of the member states, one from each.  They do not appoint themselves. 

Here again, the Council of Ministers consists of democratically elected ministers from each member state, 28 of them. 

Let's get the facts straight!

Yes Dave, its good to get facts straight

The Commissioners are the executive of the EU not the parliament, they are therefore responsible for all decisions, direction and leadership. It is the equivalent of a senior civil servant being Prime Minister.
Once they take office they have to take an oath of elegance to the EU, its beliefs and agree to put its needs above national government.

It is completely undemocratic. It is rule by the elite who don't want ordinary people getting in the way of their ideas and philosophy. This is what you have voted for.

[Dave]

Most EU laws begin with the unelected commission who are self appointed officials.

No, the 28 EU commissioners are each nominated by the democratically elected governments of the member states, one from each.  They do not appoint themselves. 

the Council of Ministers who again are unelected

Here again, the Council of Ministers consists of democratically elected ministers from each member state, 28 of them. 

Let's get the facts straight! 

[hatter76]

A slight correction - most European law starts with the Council of Ministers, who represent the national governments.  So you are probably talking about the same thing - the grey, faceless crats from Tory Brussels-Westminster.  Only different is, the Conservative government cannot force through EU legislation.  Come to think of it, they are not very united in Westminster at the moment either...

Most EU laws begin with the unelected commission who are self appointed officials. They they are run past the Council of Ministers who again are unelected and report back to nation government. After the bills have been finalised the elected parliament get to rubber stamp it following deals and negotiations. The bulk of our laws comes from this unelected system.

It completely amazes me that politicians that come from a party with the word democrats in its title can support this shower of a system. How many people gave there lives for our democracy throughout history.

We are about to throw this away!

[CllrGeoffAbell]

A slight correction - most European law starts with the Council of Ministers, who represent the national governments.  So you are probably talking about the same thing - the grey, faceless crats from Tory Brussels-Westminster.  Only different is, the Conservative government cannot force through EU legislation.  Come to think of it, they are not very united in Westminster at the moment either...

[Kevin Dowling]

When everything is boiled down, it is probably a straight choice between, being governed for the  for see able, by faceless, grey lawmakers from Brussels who have no vested interest in this country one way or another, OR the Conservative Party in Westminster, who have a massive vested interest in this country.

The faceless, grey lawmakers, just shade it.       

[Dave]

Maybe I'm being too simplistic but Australia is an island and appears to be reasonably self sufficient why can't we go down that route?

Because the UK is an island 20 miles from the French coast, whilst Australia is a continent 10,000 miles away.  There is no comparison.

[red666bear]

I am concerned that Turkey will be allowed to join the EU sooner than is being predicted due to their taking in of a lot of Syrian refugees. Apparently up to 500,000 polish were entitled to vote in the recent London mayor election. Is that an accurate figure?
Maybe I'm being too simplistic but Australia is an island and appears to be reasonably self sufficient why can't we go down that route?
So at the moment I am voting out as I believe we could be swamped with millions of Turkish people in as little as the next decade and sorry but we don't have the room and need to reclaim control of our borders.

[Dave]

I see a much looser Europe, where not all countries need enter all agreements and there is much more room for flexibility.

So do I - indeed, we are already heading that way. The euro cannot survive in its present form, IMO, and the Schengen area is also being seriously undermined by the migrant crisis. And we Brits are not alone in wanting to roll back the undemocratic European Commission - far from it!

That is why I have voted 'remain' (I happen to have a postal vote). The EU is far from perfect - what is? - but it has kept the peace in Western Europe for the longest continuous period in 2,000 years, and we must never take that for granted.

If we leave the EU the remaining countries will still be on our doorstep, and will still be working closely together without us in whatever evolves from the present EU. And everything they do will affect us profoundly. That's why for the sake of our children and grandchildren we need to stay with it and work closely with our EU partners to make it work better and more democratically.  Walking out and slamming the door is never the way to solve any problem!

[sgk]

I got sent this image earlier.  Illustrates the polarized communities quite well.