EU Referendum

[Hoffnung]

For me the Brexit argument is an argument about political right wing thinking, which I don't support at all, as it is directly responsible for division, conflict and in the extreme - war.   

Unfortunately, many people (particularly the younger  ones) see it as an argument between factions of the Conservative party and NOT OUR COUNTRY ITSELF, they are turned off by it, as they see the Conservative party as being a bunch of old fogeys in ties and suits who  they don't care about and who in turn don't care about them, because they don't vote anyway.


Unless young people take an interest, the result is very easy to predict - BREXIT.     

[tonysheldon]

A brexit will be the catalyst for other countries to leave, the sooner the better. Let's stop sending millions to the EU to waste and squander let's help the poor and sick at home instead.

The tabloids love to run the "waste and squander" line too, but the EU has positive policies for the environment, which is one of many concerns that only co-ordinated action by a bloc the size of Europe can deal with. The overwhelming view of economists and market experts is that we will be a poorer country after Brexit so certainly not more resources for the "poor and sick".  I haven't seen much evidence from the Brexiteers that their main concern is for the poor. It is more about personal political ambition for the likes of Boris, Farage, Gove , etc.

[hatter76]

I do not see how leaving helps Europe or indeed, ourselves.  We cannot insulate ourselves from Europe, but we can be at the top table debating and working towards solutions. Withdrawing will start to unravel Europe and that is not in our national interest.

The point is that the single market and the Euro is not working for the weaker countries. By scrapping their individual currencies they have passed control of macroeconomic policy over to the European Central Bank. The is means that they have no been able to devalue their currency, lower interest rates or embark on quantative easing. Countries like Greece badly need this to take place but Germany in particular blocks it as it is not in their interest. The result is mass unemployment, severe austerity and massive loans.

There is no solution to this issue, its an artificial union and sadly its going bust. If we stay we could also get saddled with debt from other countries taking more funding from our vital services. A brexit will be the catalyst for other countries to leave, the sooner the better. Let's stop sending millions to the EU to waste and squander let's help the poor and sick at home instead.

[tonysheldon]

https://data.oecd.org/unemp/youth-unemployment-rate.htm

The table shows that youth unemployment in countries like Greece, Portugal, Spain and Italy are between 30-50%, this is a whole generation failed by the EU!

The youth of this country should be very grateful that we didn't do what the unelected EU masters wanted us to do and join the Euro. It has beyond any doubt been a huge failure leading to mass youth unemployment, a massive debt crisis and low economic growth. The same people who are advocating disaster for the UK now if we leave the EU were 15 years ago saying the same if we didn't adopt the Euro.

As for Greece, there is several nasty parties out there wanting out. The crisis is far from over and requires billions of further austerity cuts and loans principally from Germany. It is predicted that there could be further pressures on the banking system in the coming weeks. This will probably spread across the weaker parts of the Eurozone.

This is not an economic project, it is a political project. We need to leave!

I do not see how leaving helps Europe or indeed, ourselves.  We cannot insulate ourselves from Europe, but we can be at the top table debating and working towards solutions. Withdrawing will start to unravel Europe and that is not in our national interest.

[Dave]

I hope people ..... consider not just what it best for Britain, but what is best for the whole of Europe..... The EU is becoming a threat to the future of Europe and is beyond reform. A new start is essential if we are to build a stable and prosperous Europe and Britain leaving the EU is an important first step.

I agree that we need to consider what is best for Europe, because even if we leave, the EU will still be 20 miles way, and everything that happens in it will impact profoundly upon us.  Why are other countries all over the world so afraid of Brexit?  Because it could be the start of the break up of the EU, with unknown and potentially serious effects on the world's economic stability, peace and prosperity.    It really is as serious as that.  And of course the EU is capable of reform - it's an organisation, so it's organic: it has always changed, and will continue to do so, especially now, because of the ongoing crises of the euro and migrants from the Middle East.  If we leave it won't solve any problems, it will just make things worse. 

Re John Major, I really can't agree with Simone.  I think he's an asset to the 'Remainers', in the same way that Gordon Brown swung it for the 'no' side in the Scottish independence referendum.  Elder statesman, fundamentally decent, likes cricket, impeccable working class background - that sort of thing.

Whereas a lot of people are really turned off by the smooth posh boys Cameron and Osborne - I fear that every time one of them pops up on the telly arguing for Remain, a few more people decide to vote 'Leave'!

As hatter says, John Major wasn't a successful Prime Minster - he has that in common with Gordon Brown too: they both led their parties to defeat at  General Elections.  But time is a great healer, and I think Major and Brown both get a respectful hearing nowadays.

There's only one other former Prime Minister still alive, and he, wisely, is keeping his head well down! 

[simonesaffron]

Please Admin,

Take that picture of "Sir" John, (the classless society) Major off this website. Why anybody would want to use him as a representative of any argument is a complete mystery to me.

Messrs Give and Johnson must be hoping that he appears regularly on TV between now and the vote.

[CllrGeoffAbell]

He was still spot on!

The idea that M Gove would use spare money to fund the NHS is quite strange!  After his failed reforms in eduction too.

https://data.oecd.org/unemp/youth-unemployment-rate.htm

The youth of this country should be very grateful that we didn't do what the unelected EU masters wanted us to do and join the Euro. It has beyond any doubt been a huge failure leading to mass youth unemployment, a massive debt crisis and low economic growth.

No, I think that was admirably achieved by the 2008 banking crisis.

Perhaps we should have an EU referendum every ten years or so until we leave. 

We will do - UK legislation asks for one for every new treaty. 

As Major said, this vote is more important than a General Election.   The population can chose.  But if they chose on the basis of lies, that would be a disaster.

[hatter76]

That is a key point.

In case you missed it, like me, here is Sir John Major on the Andrew Marr programme earlier today, speaking with a rare passion - I didn't know he had it in him!



As Major rightly points out, what we are hearing from some of the leave side is outright deceit.   And we the public are being treated by them like imbeciles.  For example, only a complete half-wit would believe Michael Gove, the man who ten years ago called for the NHS to be dismantled and replaced with personal health accounts, when he now tries to suggest that he would spend on the NHS the money saved by leaving the EU!

Remind me again how much do he lose in a single day with the ERM disaster when the pound was humiliated?
His reign ended in fiasco and complete disorder and the government run by the 1922 committee
This is the man responsible for the Maastricht treaty another disaster
A failure both yesterday and today

[Condate]

It is good to see politicians displaying passion, but not in such a base cause as John Major did. A cause which is bad for Britain and very bad for Europe. What is true though is that a lot of nonsense has been spouted during this campaign and by both sides. I hope people ignore this and consider not just what it best for Britain, but what is best for the whole of Europe. This whole debate needs to consider the larger picture and not just Britain and realise that the good of Europe, not just that of the individual nations, but of the continent as a whole demands an end to the European Union. The EU is becoming a threat to the future of Europe and is beyond reform. A new start is essential if we are to build a stable and prosperous Europe and Britain leaving the EU is an important first step.

[Dave]

we are at risk of becoming a sad, inwardly-looking country run by an elite that will destroy our free at the point of use NHS (all three of the Brexit leaders have registered their desire to do so), and set us on a course dominated by the right-wing of the Tory party.

That is a key point.

In case you missed it, like me, here is Sir John Major on the Andrew Marr programme earlier today, speaking with a rare passion - I didn't know he had it in him!



As Major rightly points out, what we are hearing from some of the leave side is outright deceit.   And we the public are being treated by them like imbeciles.  For example, only a complete half-wit would believe Michael Gove, the man who ten years ago called for the NHS to be dismantled and replaced with personal health accounts, when he now tries to suggest that he would spend on the NHS the money saved by leaving the EU! 

[mikes]

Perhaps we should have an EU referendum every ten years or so until we leave.  That way if we vote in now we see if it changes and if not we can leave in ten years.  That will put pressure on EU bureaucrats to change the massively incompetent and wasteful system we have now.  Or is that just wishful thinking - that they will change anything? As I've said before if you are on the gravy train one is hardly likely to want to change at the next station.

[hatter76]

I agree with every word you say, Dave.  Now the latest poll , if they're believable, gives Brexit a four-point lead.  If younger people dont  bother to vote in this referendum, and many young people aren't even registered, we are at risk of becoming a sad, inwardly-looking country run by an elite that will destroy our free at the point of use NHS (all three of the Brexit leaders have registered their desire to do so), and set us on a course dominated by the right-wing of the Tory party.

https://data.oecd.org/unemp/youth-unemployment-rate.htm

The table shows that youth unemployment in countries like Greece, Portugal, Spain and Italy are between 30-50%, this is a whole generation failed by the EU!

The youth of this country should be very grateful that we didn't do what the unelected EU masters wanted us to do and join the Euro. It has beyond any doubt been a huge failure leading to mass youth unemployment, a massive debt crisis and low economic growth. The same people who are advocating disaster for the UK now if we leave the EU were 15 years ago saying the same if we didn't adopt the Euro.

As for Greece, there is several nasty parties out there wanting out. The crisis is far from over and requires billions of further austerity cuts and loans principally from Germany. It is predicted that there could be further pressures on the banking system in the coming weeks. This will probably spread across the weaker parts of the Eurozone.

This is not an economic project, it is a political project. We need to leave!

[tonysheldon]

I agree with every word you say, Dave.  Now the latest poll , if they're believable, gives Brexit a four-point lead.  If younger people dont  bother to vote in this referendum, and many young people aren't even registered, we are at risk of becoming a sad, inwardly-looking country run by an elite that will destroy our free at the point of use NHS (all three of the Brexit leaders have registered their desire to do so), and set us on a course dominated by the right-wing of the Tory party.

[CllrGeoffAbell]

I agree that there has been a drip-feed of anti-EU poison from many (undemocratic) papers for decades.  Now I, like many of my fellow countrymen, have a healthy scepticism about authority, but some of the stories are frankly laughable.  And get in the way of good, serious debate. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35603388

http://www.europarl.org.uk/en/media/euromyths.html

Some of the best, most-passionate arguments this week have come from former PM, John Major and the green MP, Caroline Lucas.  And passion is important, rather than just a passive acceptance.

And I ask another question: if you want to leave the EU, would you leave the UK too?  There are parallels with that 300-year-old union, and in the past there were financial and immigration questions there too, not to mention cross-border squabbles, all hopefully things of the past.

And even the Greeks, with their myriad problems and political turmoil, have no big Leave movement.  But then they don't have the British press.

[marpleexile]

Unfortunately the EU has a specific funding pot set aside to sell the EU project to young people, which includes social media campaigns and videos. Hopefully when they start thinking themselves at some point.

It's got noting to do with an EU propaganda, and is much more to do with the newspapers being full of anti EU stuff, and social media, depending on who you follow, either ignores the subject or offers a more balanced view - in the sense that there are plenty of people offering opinions on both sides.

If you largely get your news from one source (and let's be honest not many people buy more than one newspaper a day), then that news will be biased towards their agenda.