Voting for Brexit

[Dave]

An interesting recent development has been the announcement of a tactical voting 'remain alliance' between the Lib Dems, Greens and Plaid Cymru.  The three parties have agreed that in the 60 target seats, two of the parties will give the other party a free run in an attempt to consolidate the 'remain' vote.

One of the target seats is Hazel Grove, where the Greens (and needless to say, Plaid Cymru!) will not run at this election. However, looking at the voting figures from the last general election in 2017, that is not going to make a big difference!

General election 2017: Hazel Grove

Conservative           William Wragg   20,047   45.4%
Liberal Democrat     Lisa Smart         14,533   32.9%
Labour                   Navendu Mishra   9,036   20.5%
Green                    Robbie Lee           516     1.2%
Majority                                           5,514   12.5%

(Source:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazel_Grove_(UK_Parliament_constituency))

So the 1.2% of the vote that the Green candidate got last time will make absolutely no difference.

But the figures are interesting for other reasons. In particular, if you look on that Wikipedia page at the general election results since 2010, you can see how the Labour vote has strengthened considerably over the past nine years, from 12% in 2010 to 20% in 2017. 

As we know, our MP is a member of the European Research Group of extreme Brexiters. See https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexspence/revealed-these-70-tory-mps-support-the-hard-brexit-group.

If the Tories get an outright majority in the forthcoming election, and especially if the party still contains extremist ERG members, the prospect of a catastrophic no-deal Brexit at the end of next year is a very real one.  So we know what to do............

[andy+kirsty]

Austerity; the root cause of the Brexit vote, an opinion presumably?

Has there been anything but in this thread?

[jimblob]

Yes, it is funny that the Lib Dems always have an issue with the Labour leader when looking at coalitions and yet seem comfortable with the Tory leadership!

The election won't resolve anything, it is just an opportunity to pee more money up the wall which could and should be spent on reversing austerity - the root cause of the brexit vote.

Austerity; the root cause of the Brexit vote, an opinion presumably?

[andy+kirsty]

Yes, it is funny that the Lib Dems always have an issue with the Labour leader when looking at coalitions and yet seem comfortable with the Tory leadership!

The election won't resolve anything, it is just an opportunity to pee more money up the wall which could and should be spent on reversing austerity - the root cause of the brexit vote.

Looks like we're heading for an election before Christmas.  And yes, with any luck we'll have a Brexit Party candidate in Hazel Grove, and Condate and other like-minded leavers can vote for her/ him, and hopefully split the Leave vote so that Labour or (more likely) the Lib Dems win Hazel Grove.  Bring it on! 

But what is really fascinating and imponderable is this: if the result of the election is that there is no overall majority for any one party (as happened in 2010 and 2017) what happens then?  I can just about imagine the Tories and the Brexit Party joining forces (though God help us if they do).  But can anyone see the Lib Dems and/ or SNP joining a coalition led by Prime Minister Corbyn? Me neither!

[Dave]

The Nigel Farage Fanclub have said they will be standing in every seat in the country.  You can vote for them. 

Looks like we're heading for an election before Christmas.  And yes, with any luck we'll have a Brexit Party candidate in Hazel Grove, and Condate and other like-minded leavers can vote for her/ him, and hopefully split the Leave vote so that Labour or (more likely) the Lib Dems win Hazel Grove.  Bring it on! 

But what is really fascinating and imponderable is this: if the result of the election is that there is no overall majority for any one party (as happened in 2010 and 2017) what happens then?  I can just about imagine the Tories and the Brexit Party joining forces (though God help us if they do).  But can anyone see the Lib Dems and/ or SNP joining a coalition led by Prime Minister Corbyn? Me neither! 

[amazon]

@Condate , you still haven't elaborated on the benefits. You've pointed out many things that you don't like such as common standards that make trading simpler and easier, and the "inability to favour ones own people", but you haven;t said "it will make XXXX cheaper" or "it wil make YYYY" easier

I ask for your views on benfits as to date, all forecasts from reputable sources have spoken solely of the negative impact - including a LONGTERM drop in the economy of 4 to 6 percent. Bear in mind that the "great recession" of the period spanning 2008 - 2010 is widely regarded as one of the worst depressions recorded, yet saw an impact on the UK economy of roughly HALF  that size. The publicity from the government advising us to "get ready for brexit" is only there to tell us how much extra work we'll have to do and how much more complicated it will be to do things which involves goods or people leaving or entering our island.  Given this, can YOU tell us what we'll be able to enjoy after Brexit? What's the first thing that you hope the UK government will do after Brexit, that they ar currently prevented from doing by The EU?


just picking up on a couple of points you mentioned specifically - common standards, as mentioned, are good thing, but perhaps you could explicitly say which rules prevent us from awarding contracts to "our own people"? Bear in mind that our government may operate to different standards to other european goivernments, so "we" may choose to interpret "best value" for instance as "cheapest in monetary terms" rather than "a price which will reflect the value of good purchased while still contributing to our economy"

Mr wragg voted for early general election .

[nbt]

@Condate , you still haven't elaborated on the benefits. You've pointed out many things that you don't like such as common standards that make trading simpler and easier, and the "inability to favour ones own people", but you haven;t said "it will make XXXX cheaper" or "it wil make YYYY" easier

I ask for your views on benfits as to date, all forecasts from reputable sources have spoken solely of the negative impact - including a LONGTERM drop in the economy of 4 to 6 percent. Bear in mind that the "great recession" of the period spanning 2008 - 2010 is widely regarded as one of the worst depressions recorded, yet saw an impact on the UK economy of roughly HALF  that size. The publicity from the government advising us to "get ready for brexit" is only there to tell us how much extra work we'll have to do and how much more complicated it will be to do things which involves goods or people leaving or entering our island.  Given this, can YOU tell us what we'll be able to enjoy after Brexit? What's the first thing that you hope the UK government will do after Brexit, that they ar currently prevented from doing by The EU?


just picking up on a couple of points you mentioned specifically - common standards, as mentioned, are good thing, but perhaps you could explicitly say which rules prevent us from awarding contracts to "our own people"? Bear in mind that our government may operate to different standards to other european goivernments, so "we" may choose to interpret "best value" for instance as "cheapest in monetary terms" rather than "a price which will reflect the value of good purchased while still contributing to our economy"

[andrewbowden]

Just sounds like the three year Brexit debate in the commons ,Have you tried Asda Marmalade .

Last time I had marmalade was at a b&b last year.  The owners mum makes it for them.  It had recently won a very prestigious marmalade award by all accounts.

It was extremely good. 

[amazon]

Yes it is. And it is a fact that anything that meets the definition is classed as marmalade. 

And here's my opinion.  Wanting to leave the EU because it has a definition of marmalade that happens to match what we expect in the UK to be marmalade, is a pretty strange reason to leave.  In my opinion.

Just sounds like the three year Brexit debate in the commons ,Have you tried Asda Marmalade .

[andrewbowden]

The EU definition of marmalade is in itself an opinion

Yes it is. And it is a fact that anything that meets the definition is classed as marmalade. 

And here's my opinion.  Wanting to leave the EU because it has a definition of marmalade that happens to match what we expect in the UK to be marmalade, is a pretty strange reason to leave.  In my opinion.

[jimblob]

I am not sure what the EU definition of marmalade has to do with accepting differing opinion.

The EU definition of marmalade is in itself an opinion

[andrewbowden]

I think it sums up your opinion Andrew Bowden. Just as we all might have different ideas as to what constitutes proper marmalade (Tiptree Orange for me), likewise, we're all entitled to an opinion. None are necessarily right or wrong and therein lies the problem; we appear as a nation to have lost the ability to respect other peoples opinions.... In my opinion! 

I am not sure what the EU definition of marmalade has to do with accepting differing opinion.  Opinion is what the rules are and should be.  Fact is why the rules were created the way they are.

But equally I have no problem with pointing out when someone's opinion may be swayed by misinformation, or factual inaccuracies.

If you stand in front of me and tell me the Asda logo is blue because you read it in a book, expect me to tell you you are wrong.

[Belly]

One of the problem with opinions is that they don't need to be backed up by facts. Which is a problem.

When Mr Gove suggested that people have "had enough of experts" he inadvertently hit the nail on the head. It would appear that as a country we now prefer to be lied to, by people who have uncontested history of lying, because they at least tell us what we want to hear and not the uncomfortable and generally extremely complex truth / fact.

Its easier for Mrs Miggins to read a load of cobblers on the internet about the Lisbon Treaty and how it's going to apparently claim the life of every first born son in Marple, then for her to actually do any balanced research. Can't be bothered to read the Withdrawal Agreement? Never mind, there will be a sound-bite along in a minute to do the rounds of ones own particular echo-chamber.

Its almost better to be ignorant and let those who actually have looked into the subject (i.e 'the experts') make the decisions, than glory in having an 'opinion' based on nothing more than lies, propaganda and party politics.

[jimblob]

I think it sums up the argument really.

I think it sums up your opinion Andrew Bowden. Just as we all might have different ideas as to what constitutes proper marmalade (Tiptree Orange for me), likewise, we're all entitled to an opinion. None are necessarily right or wrong and therein lies the problem; we appear as a nation to have lost the ability to respect other peoples opinions.... In my opinion! 

[Cyberman]

Suspect that this post is facetious . . .
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/23/10-best-euro-myths-from-custard-creams-to-condoms

Yes it was facetious - and thanks for the link to many other examples of Euro myths. Also I hadn't intended any double entendre (sorry if that's on the Rees Mogg list of banned vocabulary...)