Voting for Brexit

[Melancholyflower]

I wonder why we don't have the blue passport brigade clamoring for us to leave the un-elected, un-accountable, undemocratic NATO.

Perhaps because NATO is not a political alliance, but a military one.  Its raison d'etre died with the Soviet Union, but vested interests kept it going. 

This can’t be said too often, especially on this day (Remembrance Sunday) of all days. Those of us who were born in the years following WW2 have lived out our entire lives in the longest continuous period of peace between the countries of Western Europe for 2,000 years. We must never ever take that for granted.

Explain who is taking it for granted, and how?

For thousands of years we have been a sovereign nation making our own laws. We still do. Anyone who thinks different is sadly deluded.

Since joining the EU or EEC as it was, we have agreed to a set of common standards with 27 friendly, neighbouring countries to enable us to trade together, to move freely in these countries and to live in peace - I think that's pretty damn good!!!

It is stretching things even to imply that the formation of the EU in and of itself was the sole reason that "Western Europe" hasn't been at war with itself.  There were many other co-international initiatives that were equally desirous of "peace and prosperity". EFTA, for example (before it was outmuscled by the EU).

The mountain of EU Directives and Regulations you call "a set of common standards" has technically been enacted by UK Parliament, but there's nothing sovereign about it. They are transposed into our law whether we "agree" or not.

I don't know about marmalade or bananas, but EU membership destroyed our Fisheries industry as well as irreparably harming fish stocks in the North Sea which was an ecological disaster. The meat industry was harmed by the senseless destruction of abattoirs as a direct result of EU interference, which many feel led to the foot and mouth epidemic in 2001 because cattle had to be transported further than before, and on a larger scale. When the epidemic did strike, EU legislation forbade all the effective preventative measures we could have taken based on lessons of the previous 1960s outbreak, which led to the senseless pre-emptive culling. An absolute unmitigated disaster.  Farming...  once we were the most efficient industry in Europe (before membership of course), before we cut our hands off by agreeing to the nonsensical CAP.

I can provide many more examples if you wish. The whole Brexit / Remain argument has never been waged on the terms it should have been.

[stusmith]

Apologies

earlier posts refer to 'membership of the Union internationale des chemins de fer and the Union postale universelle'

The quote from a previous post seems appropriate:

Nothing is infinite, except the universe and stupid people, and sometimes, I doubt the universe."

[stusmith]

it is interesting that Brexit supporters cannot explain or describe how their lives or those of their children or grand children will improve if we leave the EU. They always come up with strange things that really are nonsense - marmalade !!!! bananas !!!! - incredible.

For thousands of years we have been a sovereign nation making our own laws. We still do. Anyone who thinks different is sadly deluded.
 Since joining the EU or EEC as it was, we have agreed to a set of common standards with 27 friendly, neighbouring countries to enable us to trade together, to move freely in these countries and to live in peace - I think that's pretty damn good!!!

If Brexit can improve on this please explain how ?

[wheels]

I wonder why we don't have the blue passport brigade clamoring for us to leave the un-elected, un-accountable, undemocratic  NATO. 

Spending millions of our Euros/Pounds/Zlotys or whatever on schemes we in Marple have never been asked to endorse.

[Harry]

This can’t be said too often, especially on this day (Remembrance Sunday) of all days. Those of us who were born in the years following WW2 have lived out our entire lives in the longest continuous period of peace between the countries of Western Europe for 2,000 years. We must never ever take that for granted.

Yes. We have a lot to thank NATO for. It's just a shame that so few countries honour their commitment to it.

[Dave]

Yes, the longest period of peace and prosperity that Europe has ever known. What a failure. 

This can’t be said too often, especially on this day (Remembrance Sunday) of all days. Those of us who were born in the years following WW2 have lived out our entire lives in the longest continuous period of peace between the countries of Western Europe for 2,000 years. We must never ever take that for granted.

[Belly]

‘The hated metric system’. Behave yourself.

[marpleexile]

The list would take days to type out and most example are in fact well known to all members of the forum.

The ability to favour UK companies and indeed only accept bids from UK companies is very important. Obviously, this would not be required and EU countries could exclude UK companies as well (I could never understand why and French company for example could want to accept bids for a contract from other than French companies). We will no longer have to treat all EU companies etc as equal to our own and vice versa.

And yet no other country in the EU has this "problem". As with most "problems caused by the EU" it's actually the British government's interpretation that is the issue, not the EU.

The ability to decide for ourselves whether to adopt standards from the EU (or elsewhere for that matter), or have our own. Obviously, some standards make sense as the UK's long membership of the Union internationale des chemins de fer and the Union postale universelle show, but neither the EU, nor the UK, should try to impose its standards on each other (and as I've mentioned, the UK has its fair share of blame for imposing its standards on other member states).

Except that at the moment we get to decide the standards, in partnership with the rest of the EU. Should we leave we will be forced to accept the standards imposed on us by our biggest trading partner (whomever that ends up being). We won't get to decide anything.

The ability to allow labelling of products in Imperial units only is very important. For me, getting rid of compulsory use of the hated metric system (born of the French Revolution and the ideas which inspired it), would be reason enough to leave the EU.

 

This is up there with blue passports.......

The impetus Brexit will give to the people of the remaining EU states in their efforts to leave the EU is also important.

The EU is a failed experiment.

Yes, the longest period of peace and prosperity that Europe has ever known. What a failure. 

[marpleexile]

(Actually I am not.  Imperial measurements are a ludicrous system.  No wonder most of the world has shunned them.)

But but but, those industrial power houses of Liberia and Myanmars still use Imperial, and they could be the only places we can get a trade deal with......

[Dave]

Scaremongering, in my opinion. Use of words like "catastrophic" and maths based on two "ifs" adding up to  "Very real" 

I take jimblob's point about the 'two ifs'.  Actually, if 'if no 1' happens (i.e. there is an overall Tory majority) then 'if no 2' is bound to follow, because the Tories can only win an outright majority if most of their sitting MPs are re-elected, and that includes the ERG crowd..   And with opinion polls at their current levels don't rule it out!

But my use of the word 'catastrophe' is certainly not 'scaremongering', neither is it our old friend 'project fear'.  It is the overwhelming consensus of reputable economic forecasts,  including from the governments's own Office for Budget Responsibility: Brexit will undoubtedly have a damaging impact on the economy, and a no-deal Brexit will have an even more damaging impact.

This is a good and relatively straightforward summary, from the Institute for Fiscal Studies: https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/14421

It models four scenarios, in which the best economic outcome is produced by remaining in the EU, followed by leaving with a deal, followed by continued long-term uncertainty, followed, lastly, by leaving without a deal.  The three-year projections shown there suggest a 5% (£100 billion) increase in GDP if we remain, compared, at the other extreme, with a 1% (£20 billion) increase if we leave without a deal.

And yet the leaflet which dropped through our letterbox today claimed that if we 'get Brexit done', that means £33.9 billion more for the NHS, 20,000 more police officers, and 'more money for every school' (I'm amused by the coyness of the last one - just 'more money' ;-)

So if Brexit enables the government to splash that amount of cash around, think how much they could splash if we don't leave!   

[andrewbowden]

You know we started adopting metric before we joined the EU?  And that many many people have never learned imperial.  I am 42.  I learned Metric at school. People before me learned Metric.  Everyone after has learned Metric.  Our adoption of metric has nothing at all to do with the EU.  Our adoption of metric will not change if we leave .

People who only think in imperial are only ever going to be decreasing in number.

Sorry.

(Actually I am not.  Imperial measurements are a ludicrous system.  No wonder most of the world has shunned them.)

[Condate]

BTW I note that neither @Condate nor anyone else has actually stepped up to provide examples of the positive differences that Brexit will bring. Any suggestions?

The list would take days to type out and most example are in fact well known to all members of the forum.

The ability to favour UK companies and indeed only accept bids from UK companies is very important. Obviously, this would not be required and EU countries could exclude UK companies as well (I could never understand why and French company for example could want to accept bids for a contract from other than French companies). We will no longer have to treat all EU companies etc as equal to our own and vice versa.

The ability to decide for ourselves whether to adopt standards from the EU (or elsewhere for that matter), or have our own. Obviously, some standards make sense as the UK's long membership of the Union internationale des chemins de fer and the Union postale universelle show, but neither the EU, nor the UK, should try to impose its standards on each other (and as I've mentioned, the UK has its fair share of blame for imposing its standards on other member states).

The ability to allow labelling of products in Imperial units only is very important. For me, getting rid of compulsory use of the hated metric system (born of the French Revolution and the ideas which inspired it), would be reason enough to leave the EU.

The impetus Brexit will give to the people of the remaining EU states in their efforts to leave the EU is also important.

For me, Brexit is not really about the UK; it is about Europe and its future. It is because I am pro-European that I am anti-EU. I think Brexit will have failed if the EU still exists in twenty years time. The EU is a failed experiment. I have no objection to a Europe of closely cooperating nations. There is undoubtedly a unity to Europe, but the EU has missed the point. I think all forum members would be well advised to read the book by Hilaire Belloc (a former Liberal MP by the way) "Europe and the Faith". He points out the true nature of Europe and it what its unity consists.


 

[andrewbowden]

Don't forget that until Andrew Stunnell stepped down, our constituency was strongly lib-dem.

It's interesting looking at the history of Hazel Grove constituency.

It was created in 1974.

Feb 1974-Oct 1974 it was Liberal.
October 1974 it went to the Conservatives - MP Tom Arnold.
1997 it went Lib Dem to Andrew Stunell.
2015 it went back to the Conservatives.

1997 and 2015 stand out to me every time because they're two points when there was a seismic change in the politics in this country.  In 1997 the Conservatives lost power and lost a lot of seats.  In 2015 the Lib Dems were essentially punished for going into coalition.  (Also of note in both cases, the sitting MP stood down as well.)

Could it be that it will take another seismic shock to change MP?  Or will the next shock not affect us?

Here's another interesting fact by the way.  In 2015 Wragg won with the lowest share of the vote this constituency has ever had, getting only 41.4% of the votes.  Given the Lib Dems and Labour both increased their vote share in 2017, it seems likely the only reason he won was because Ukip didn't stand.  If the Brexit Party do as they say they will, and stand someone here, it seems likely he's got a serious battle on his hands.

What happens this December is an interesting question.

[nbt]

It's amazing how much of the "Scaremongering" of "project fear" has been dismissed, right up until it's become "exactly what people voted for"

Don't forget that until Andrew Stunnell stepped down, our constituency was strongly lib-dem. There's no saying that this swing from Lib dem to Conservative won't be reversed - but then it isn't guaranteed to happen either

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Stunell#Member_of_Parliament,_1997%E2%80%932015

BTW I note that neither @Condate nor anyone else has actually stepped up to provide examples of the positive differences that Brexit will bring. Any suggestions?

[jimblob]

If the Tories get an outright majority in the forthcoming election, and especially if the party still contains extremist ERG members, the prospect of a catastrophic no-deal Brexit at the end of next year is a very real one.  So we know what to do............

Scaremongering, in my opinion. Use of words like "catastrophic" and maths based on two "ifs" adding up to  "Very real"