Suspension of train services from Rose Hill

[Dave]

So there you go: we could be about to spend  £30K of taxpayers’ money so that Condate can put on his anorak and joyride from Rose Hill to Guide Bridge and back next week. 🙄

[Condate]

I also have absolutely no idea if actually running a train is a good idea and whether it will be used.  But it's a solution that has been proposed.  And frankly is a lot more than has come from Northern and the DfT who just seem to have shrugged at the problem.

As to whether it would be used, I know West Coast Railways has some quite interesting traction. I see they have a couple of operational class 33s and quite a few ex-freight class 37s, along with some class 47s and 57s.  I'd certainly be using the service if the 33s, or 37s were used, as it is a long time since I've been on a class 33 hauled train and then only once. It's a good while since I was hauled by a class 37 and even then it was a 37/4 and WCR are using 37/5. 37/6 and 37/7.

If they operate with class 33 or 37 and mark 1 or early mark 2 coaching stock, I think I'd be spending a good bit of time shuttling back and forth, just for the ride. It would be worth taking some holidays from work to make the most of it.



 

[amazon]

Yes and no.

Rose Hill isn't under threat of closure because of this current temporary withdrawal of service.

However, the general feeling in Marple (whether justified or not) is that Rose Hill station is just generally under threat of closure, and many people are seeing this as part of building a case for permanently closing it.

The general feeling from who the lib Dems .

[marpleexile]

Which is why many people think the station and the line itself are under threat, which is simply not true.

Yes and no.

Rose Hill isn't under threat of closure because of this current temporary withdrawal of service.

However, the general feeling in Marple (whether justified or not) is that Rose Hill station is just generally under threat of closure, and many people are seeing this as part of building a case for permanently closing it.

[amazon]

Not simple enough it seems, because many people seem to believe that the station itself is under threat of closure.  This is probably because some of the campaigners use misleading phrases. So one of the campaigns has this website, which clearly implies that the station faces closure: www.saverosehill.co.uk. And take a look at the headline on Cllr Smart’s site: https://www.lisasmart.org.uk/rose-hill-rail. Which is why many people think the station and the line itself are under threat, which is simply not true.

Thanks for trying to explain to people dave if people would view the webcast that explains quite a lot if it wasent for covid the trains would be running .

[Dave]

I'm not sure that's entirely fair, it's a pretty simple concept to get your head around

Not simple enough it seems, because many people seem to believe that the station itself is under threat of closure.  This is probably because some of the campaigners use misleading phrases. So one of the campaigns has this website, which clearly implies that the station faces closure: www.saverosehill.co.uk. And take a look at the headline on Cllr Smart’s site: https://www.lisasmart.org.uk/rose-hill-rail. Which is why many people think the station and the line itself are under threat, which is simply not true.

[Melancholyflower]

AFAIK the Pacers (which were due to be scrapped years ago), are now only in use when coupled with a different kind of train, usually a class 150 'Sprinter'.  I don't think the shortage of trained drivers is specific to any particular type of train - it applies to all their trains.

Regarding the issue of petitions, mentioned earlier in this thread, I think we need to wake up to the fact that 5,500 people signing a petition may not actually mean very much.  I know several people who signed that petition who never use public transport of any kind.  What happens is that someone who feels strongly about an issue asks all their friends to sign a petition, and their friends, being friendly and happy to oblige, duly sign without having the foggiest idea what the issue is really about.   

I'm not sure that's entirely fair, it's a pretty simple concept to get your head around. Also, if someone doesn't use public transport for whatever reason they're still quite free to believe that the service should still run for other people. 

But it's true that the numbers are not exactly overwhelming. It doesn't help that there is more than one petition, either.  I haven't been following closely enough, but if it's purely party politics then that's already been counter-productive.

The general idea of running a service is fine, but the fact it will only go to Guide Bridge also seems futile given most people from RH use it to get to Manchester. The bus replacement might even be quicker than waiting for a connection at GB.

[Dave]

I haven't had time to view the meeting... was anything mentioned about the Pacers and whether there were enough drivers to operate those?

AFAIK the Pacers (which were due to be scrapped years ago), are now only in use when coupled with a different kind of train, usually a class 150 'Sprinter'.  I don't think the shortage of trained drivers is specific to any particular type of train - it applies to all their trains.

Regarding the issue of petitions, mentioned earlier in this thread, I think we need to wake up to the fact that 5,500 people signing a petition may not actually mean very much.  I know several people who signed that petition who never use public transport of any kind.  What happens is that someone who feels strongly about an issue asks all their friends to sign a petition, and their friends, being friendly and happy to oblige, duly sign without having the foggiest idea what the issue is really about.   

[amazon]

I haven't had time to view the meeting... was anything mentioned about the Pacers and whether there were enough drivers to operate those?

Nothing to do with trains no Drivers its only a temp suspension till december if drivers become available in the meantime they will bring back the service dont no why people think they are closing the line permantly they are not .

[Melancholyflower]

I haven't had time to view the meeting... was anything mentioned about the Pacers and whether there were enough drivers to operate those?

[andrewbowden]

And the situation is further complicated by the confused and misleading information published in Cllr Smart's FAQs:  https://www.lisasmart.org.uk/rose-hill-faqs.   She refers to the line being closed, but it isn't (if it was then no company would be able to run trains on it). What is happening is Northern Trains are temporarily withdrawing their service.  And then she writes that the West Coast Railway service will 'prove to Northern that it can be done'.  But Northern Trains will be well aware that it 'can be done' - the problem is simply a shortage of drivers because Covid-19 has held up their programme of driver training.

It looks to me that what they're trying to prove can be done, is that an imaginative solution can be found to the problem.

Northern (appear to) have just held up their hands and gone "we can't run trains because we have no drivers!"

Okay.  So you have no drivers.  Fine.  That's an issue.  So what can you do?

What you can do is do what Northern have done and - extremely begrudgingly - put on a handful of buses in replacement.  A very standard answer, although the fact the buses only came in later just is contemptible.

This proposal has looked at it differently and said "how can we keep trains running when Northern haven't got drivers?"  And have come up with an answer of "find someone who has drivers."

And they have found someone.  They have proved it can be done differently.


n.b. I have no idea if Northern also considered this as an option.  It's possible they did and it was shot down by the Department for Transport on cost grounds.  Because when all is said and done, Northern is now just the DfT in disguide.  I also don't know the relative cost of begrudgingly putting on a handful of buses vs the cost of hiring a staffed train, although I would suspect the former is cheaper - especially if they do their normal thing of hiring the worst old bangers they can find.

I also have absolutely no idea if actually running a train is a good idea and whether it will be used.  But it's a solution that has been proposed.  And frankly is a lot more than has come from Northern and the DfT who just seem to have shrugged at the problem.

[amazon]

Stockport Council (that means us). I believe it is expected to cost up to £30,000 to pay West Coast Railways to provide a service from Rose Hill to Guide Bridge for a week. Let’s hope a few people use it........

Money could be better spent somewere else .i thought it was a lack of drivers that was the problem not money .

[Dave]

But they also operated a temporary service on the Windermere branch recently, when Northern were in a big meltdown.

OK, let's get the story straight! The present railway company serving Rose Hill is the government-owned Northern Trains, which took over from the struggling Arriva Rail North earlier this year.  Two years ago, when it was having a major meltdown of its timetables, Arriva suspended services on the Oxenholme to Windermere line. Local MP Tim Farron stepped in and got West Coast Railways to operate the service for two weeks in June 2018.  That was in a tourist area at the height of the tourist season. West Coast ran their vintage trains on the line for two weeks, for which they were paid £80,000 by the government. No fares were charged, and lots of tourists and their kids obliged by coming along for a free ride.

Oxenholme to Windermere is one thing, but Rose Hill to Guide Bridge is quite another!  There is no government funding on offer in this case.   Instead, if you listen to the recording of the recent Marple Area Committee meeting, it seems that the councillors plan to use delegated pots of money allocated to wards.  Apparently each of the four wards in Marple and Werneth has a delegated budget of £7,500, so that adds up to £30K.     Which seems quite credible, seeing as the Oxenholme to Windermere service cost £80K to run for two weeks, operating three return trips per day.  All so that a few trainspotters and their children can have a free ride......   

And the situation is further complicated by the confused and misleading information published in Cllr Smart's FAQs:  https://www.lisasmart.org.uk/rose-hill-faqs.   She refers to the line being closed, but it isn't (if it was then no company would be able to run trains on it). What is happening is Northern Trains are temporarily withdrawing their service.  And then she writes that the West Coast Railway service will 'prove to Northern that it can be done'.  But Northern Trains will be well aware that it 'can be done' - the problem is simply a shortage of drivers because Covid-19 has held up their programme of driver training. 

[andrewbowden]

. West Coast Railways is a specialised company which normally operates ‘heritage’ stock on tourist lines for the sake of enthusiasts.

True.  But they also operated a temporary service on the Windermere branch recently, when Northern were in a big meltdown.

They have carriages, staff, and locomotives.  And they are used to operating ad-hoc services, be they be charters or not.

You would also be hard pressed to find an operator who could run this who doesn't do charters.  The main railway companies don't tend to have spare trainsets or drivers they they can use to suddenly spin up a temporary service.

[Dave]

I'm not sure where you are picking up the £30k cost from

It was from the area committee discussion (link earlier in this thread) Not everything that was said was fully audible, but as far as I could tell the proposal was to fund a week of train services from the delegated funding which the four wards of Marple and Werneth have for local priorities. Each ward has £7.5K so that makes £30K maximum available.

That is not made clear on Lisa Smart’s FAQs, but as far as I can tell it seems to be what is planned. To be honest it just seems like a political stunt to me. West Coast Railways is a specialised company which normally operates ‘heritage’ stock on tourist lines for the sake of enthusiasts. If it happens the week after next (and it’s a big if!) it will not be a normal train service and the majority of the few passengers will just be going along for the ride. Is this good use of our money........?