More "Safe Street" proposals in Marple centre

[jimblob]

Got to worry about Stockport Highways Team.... a report that is over 3 months late finally arrives and given the contentious nature of these measures it contains a subtle but very significant error!
Para 2.5 stating… 264no (51%) of all respondents stated they were supportive of the implementation of the measures prior to installation. … WRONG!
It was in fact 51% were NOT supportive of the measures.
Para 2.7 then goes on to say
2.7 When asked if they supported the implementation of the speed cushions, 162no (31%) of all respondents stated they supported the introduction of cushions, with 346no (66%) not supporting the implementation and 15no (3%) being undecided. This indicates an increase in support of 5%.
Oooo 5% increase in support for the measures, but they fail to point out the more significant INCREASE of 15% in the lack of support (51% to 66%).
When the error is pointed out to them, they correct the mistake and resubmit the report but don't bother to aknowledge their error. Reeks of arse-covering to me!
This council department is dysfunctional, unaccountable and incompetent! The only competency they seem to have is an ability to cover their arses and waste money hand over fist.
I also worry that our local councillors appear to be continually duped by the Highways Team, please councillors @Steve Gribbon @ColinMac @BeckySenior @Malcolm Allan, stop letting them make fools you and your electorate.

[Condate]

It's very disappointing that the cushions are to be removed and not be replaced with more permanent infrastructure changes, chicanes, kerb extensions, tree planting, extra and more sensitive pedestrians crossings, introduction of roundabouts.  Much more could be done to slow traffic down and make the street scene more pleasant and attractive for all.

I am very glad the nonsense of these so-called traffic calming cushions are to be removed. Traffic is slow; at least it always is and always was when I've been walking in Marple (which is frequently). Before the 20 limit and cushions, I found Marple a pleasant and attractive place to be when walking. The roads are easy to cross (although I've seen a good few idiotic pedestrians try and walk in front of cars; even ones driving slowly and responsibly), just yards from a crossing.  Even when my wife had two hips in need of replacement and walked very slowly, she had no problems crossing roads and this was before any of these measures.

If there is any need for anything at all, it should be in the form of a police presence (which there should be anyway, as that is the whole point of the police; the Peelian principle that the police are not there primarily to catch criminals, but to deter crime by their presence seems to have been forgotten).

[jimblob]

Are you suggesting a better more pleasant built environment which gave everyone at least equal status on our roads is something you would not favour. It feels a little like the no smoking campaigns of the 70s, 80, and 90. Eventually we will get there.

I think we have different definitions of equal @wheels

[wheels]

the report results speak for themselves @wheels and alas, (at least as far as you're concerned), speak for the majority.

Are you suggesting a better more pleasant built environment which gave everyone at least equal status on our roads is something you would not favour. It feels a little like the no smoking campaigns of the 70s, 80, and 90. Eventually we will get there.

[jimblob]

It's very disappointing that the cushions are to be removed and not be replaced with more permanent infrastructure changes, chicanes, kerb extensions, tree planting, extra and more sensitive pedestrians crossings, introduction of roundabouts.  Much more could be done to slow traffic down and make the street scene more pleasant and attractive for all.

the report results speak for themselves @wheels and alas, (at least as far as you're concerned), speak for the majority.

[wheels]

It's very disappointing that the cushions are to be removed and not be replaced with more permanent infrastructure changes, chicanes, kerb extensions, tree planting, extra and more sensitive pedestrians crossings, introduction of roundabouts.  Much more could be done to slow traffic down and make the street scene more pleasant and attractive for all.

[jimblob]

Just looked at this report again... it contradicts itself...
para 2.5...

264no (51%) of all respondents stated they were supportive of the implementation of the measures prior to installation, with 137no (26%) not being supportive and 118no
(23%) having no view. A summary of the responses to each of the questions asked is
provided in Appendix C

but appendix C graphic states the opposite.... They can't even write an accurate report!

[jimblob]

The conclusion of a report being considered at Marple Area Committee on Wednesday is:

You can read the full report here: https://democracy.stockport.gov.uk/documents/s198939/Committee%20Main%20Report%20-SSSL_Marple%20DC%20JAN22.pdf

astonishing it took this long to compile the report! Perhaps they couldn't figure a way to fudge this one! One interesting statistic though does come through, that BEFORE the measures were introduced 51% of people specifically stated they were opposed to the measures and ONLY 26% were in support of them.... WHY WERE THEY STILL IMPLEMENTED?
Maybe one of our councillors could answer that one?

[admin]

The conclusion of a report being considered at Marple Area Committee on Wednesday is:

The results of the consultation indicate that whilst respondents support the speed limit reduction across the district centre, the physical traffic calming cushions were much less popular and the view was that they should be removed. A 20mph zone should be supported by some form of traffic calming measure. Therefore, if the cushions are removed and not replaced, the 20mph Zone would need to be replaced with a 20mph speed limit and the signage would need to be altered from zonal signage to speed limit signing. It is recommended that the 20mph zone be made permanent and the temporary cushions are removed. To maintain the zonal order, alternative traffic calming measures (such as road markings and additional signage) will be considered and options reported back to Area Committee.

You can read the full report here: https://democracy.stockport.gov.uk/documents/s198939/Committee%20Main%20Report%20-SSSL_Marple%20DC%20JAN22.pdf

[Condate]

So what ideas do you and your colleagues have for alternative traffic calming and/or placemaking for Marple centre? Because honestly, it needs something.

Does it? Really?  That's a large part of the issue. As a frequent pedestrian, I've never had a problem with traffic. My wife has now had both hips replaced, but prior to that found mobility difficult and was very slow crossing the road. She never had the least difficulty with traffic.

I really question the need for damaging traffic calming measures. If we need something, it should be a regular police presence to check on compliance with traffic rules. That would no doubt be considered expensive, but it is what the police are supposed to be for; deterring offences by their presence. It's their whole  raison d'être.

[rsh]

I have absolutely no problem with the 20mph zone, I like the idea of it and I will always push for safety of residents, especially with the full time job I work in. What I didn't/don't get is how the speed bumps improve social distancing. Whilst I understand the need to reduce speed in certain areas such as Travis Perkins as you rightly mention, the 20mph zone you enter should result in people driving at 20mph. The speed bumps do not appear to have helped this as I have seen people go over them at a wide range of speeds throughout the daytime and evening. We do have designated areas for crossing of course and it is great so many use these facilities.
Historically Stockport Road has not been a particular problem for accidents (having looked at fire service attendances). If the installed devices were to counter accidents following a series of them
I would say fair enough but the only reason we were ever told was to improve social distancing.

Thank you for the reply @Steve Gribbon .

Re the aims of Safer Streets Save Lives, it seems that's quite a basic take on the subject, and although it was generally about "social distancing", there are many aspects to that, which could have been understood more fully by actually reading press releases at the time: https://news.tfgm.com/news/leaders-progress-bold-active-travel-plans-as-up-to-gbp-5m-of-emergency-funding-made-available-as-part-of-coronavirus-recovery

One very important aspect of this is that people immediately no longer wanted to take buses or trains and numbers of people cycling shot up. That's effectively social distancing too. Putting yourself on a bike rather than an enclosed train or bus = social distancing! And I hope you can understand that trying to cycle amongst traffic doing 20mph is massively different to 30mph. So the funding was about about trying to make roads better for cycling, too.

As someone who cycles around Marple centre most weeks, the 20mph zone/humps have made a modest but important difference. The hump outside the cinema in particular means I can now cross from Memorial Park into Church Street much more easily and safely, because most traffic coming from Strines Rd is properly slowed down rather than speeding in to race the lights at 35mph+. I still don't actually feel comfortable cycling down Stockport Road though, which is a shame, and something I'd hope councillors might actually address one day, if we're ever to sort out Marple's traffic problems..?

That said, I actually agree that speed bumps never completely work - often the only way to really control peoples driving speeds is with enforcement, either police or camera. Although in this case, I do feel that some kind of clear entry feature or simply more modest (less jarring) humps is still necessary to signify to people driving that they are entering a 20mph zone/town centre — eg the gentle humps in Marple Bridge, or different paving as in Poynton.

I don't feel that simply removing the bolt-in humps and leaving the (easily missed) 20mph signs in place will be sufficient to bring about or continue with any kind of behaviour change. So what ideas do you and your colleagues have for alternative traffic calming and/or placemaking for Marple centre? Because honestly, it needs something.

[Steve Gribbon]

Thank you for replying to that Cllr @Steve Gribbon 

Are you able to give us an update on outcome of the meeting you and fellow councillors were due to attend with Officers in early December please?

Yes of course

We had a good meeting where we stated the concerns of residents along with our own thoughts, the main issue being none of us are against the 20mph zone but the bumps have caused a lot of feedback with the majority of it being negative.
The information is then passed to the portfolio holder for a decision and we are still awaiting this. Now the festive period is over I will chase up where we are with it. I requested the double yellow lines on Station Road be repainted a couple of days ago and have received a reply stating this has been put forward so the officers are available to contact. I will update on here when I get some more information.

I forgot to mention before, all the best to everyone on this site for 2022.

Kind regards

Steve

[admin]

Thank you for replying to that Cllr @Steve Gribbon 

Are you able to give us an update on outcome of the meeting you and fellow councillors were due to attend with Officers in early December please?

[Steve Gribbon]

Quite surprised at the normally sensible Cllr @Steve Gribbon failing to understand how the 20mph measures help people on foot (or other means) and with social distancing. Some pavements in the area (particularly outside Travis Perkins for example) are ridiculously narrow and cluttered with street furniture. If people want to pass each other at a reasonable distance, that’s going to require one party briefly stepping into the road. Stating, quite angrily, “we walk on pavements” as if how dare any pedestrian need to use some of the THREE lanes of carriageway there is a really disappointing and misguided response to this matter. Luckily Malcolm Allan seemed to get it.

Good morning

Thanks for linking me into this and my apologies for the delay in replying, I genuinely missed seeing my name on the thread. I always welcome feedback on how I come over at meetings and appreciate your comments, you have my word I wasn't angry. Maybe a little stern at best but certainly not angry as I really enjoy local engagement matters.

I have absolutely no problem with the 20mph zone, I like the idea of it and I will always push for safety of residents, especially with the full time job I work in. What I didn't/don't get is how the speed bumps improve social distancing. Whilst I understand the need to reduce speed in certain areas such as Travis Perkins as you rightly mention, the 20mph zone you enter should result in people driving at 20mph. The speed bumps do not appear to have helped this as I have seen people go over them at a wide range of speeds throughout the daytime and evening. We do have designated areas for crossing of course and it is great so many use these facilities.
Historically Stockport Road has not been a particular problem for accidents (having looked at fire service attendances). If the installed devices were to counter accidents following a series of them
I would say fair enough but the only reason we were ever told was to improve social distancing. Many of my councillor colleagues agree and this has been taken forward following communication from a large amount of residents.

I hope this clarifies my thoughts on the subject. I also am grateful for your comment on being normally sensible, I take my role as councillor very seriously and for those who know me protection of our residents has always been a priority and it will continue to be.

Kind regards

Steve     

[Condate]

Quite surprised at the normally sensible Cllr @Steve Gribbon failing to understand how the 20mph measures help people on foot (or other means) and with social distancing. Some pavements in the area (particularly outside Travis Perkins for example) are ridiculously narrow and cluttered with street furniture. If people want to pass each other at a reasonable distance, that’s going to require one party briefly stepping into the road. Stating, quite angrily, “we walk on pavements” as if how dare any pedestrian need to use some of the THREE lanes of carriageway there is a really disappointing and misguided response to this matter. Luckily Malcolm Allan seemed to get it.

I use Marple on foot at least as often as by car; probably more and I don't see the point in the iniquitous 20mph limit. Note that you can't often do any more than that anyway, but having an actual limit is the action of people who give the impression of hating the people of Marple (and other places with the same bonkers idea). I'm sure they don't; they think they are helping and are well meaning, but if the limit persists, time will show how damaging it is.

Really, the problem is that the law allows councils to do this sort of thing. The real solution lies in changing the law to prevent it. That's where campaigning is really needed.

Perhaps however here isn't the place to discuss it any more, as I think everyone is aware of ever one else's view on the issue.